This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty 496 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • John_Mann

    It seems to me that you believe that life can only have meaning if you can "live on" after to death.


    It seems to me that you are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that you are no more at death.

    But in my worldview there's something more dreadful than oblivion. It's called perdition.

    So in a psychological level I think oblivion is literally infinitely better than perdition. So my view it's not a psychological defense against the possibility of oblivion.

    But I admit if I'm wrong the only possibility left is oblivion. Ironically if I'm wrong I will never know.

    P. S. Sorry but I really think Spiritism and/or Spiritualism are complete BS. I can't even bother to discuss things like that.

  • deegee


    Your replies to my comments seem to be selective. No comment on the following?

    So when a spirit medium claims to have contacted the dead during a séance, whom/what has the medium contacted?

    It seems that this is our ultimate proof that the soul does not exist if no one has been able to contact the dead who are presumed to be still conscious.

    Pity we aren't able to contact the "conscious" dead to hear about what the afterlife is like and about their conversations with God.

  • John_Mann
    It seems that this is our ultimate proof that the soul does not exist if no one has been able to contact the dead who are presumed to be still conscious.

    I don't think this is a proof.

    Pity we aren't able to contact the "conscious" dead to hear about what the afterlife is like and about their conversations with God.

    Actually there's such possibility. But it's a very rare event.

    The most famous in recent times is the miracle of the sun in Fatima. Witnessed by thousands of people. Including some photos.

  • cofty
  • Saethydd

    What you mean by objective?

    I literally defined the word immediately after I said it. I will reword it.

    Objective knowledge: knowledge which can be applied or obtained by anyone regardless of their beliefs.

    So you don't understand the scientific method. The scientific method is only applicable to the physical world.


    Energy is physical.

    No, I do understand the scientific method. The issue here seems to be that either we have different definitions of "physical," or you don't understand energy. I would define physical as anything which exists materially. Energy is immaterial, therefore not physical.

    Energy, however, does affect the material world in observable and measurable ways, which is why I can believe in it. In fact, if a deity or any other spiritual being did exist, I would expect them to exist as beings of pure energy, but to my knowledge, no verified or repeatable observation of such a being exists. Neither does there exist any theory for how pure energy could manifest itself as an intelligent entity. With that being the case I remain skeptical of any supposed knowledge about spirit creatures.

    Now perhaps I am wrong about this, but if spiritual beings have any impact at all on us physical beings then it seems like there should be some evidence of how they can do that.

    How do you scientifically measure the potential of an idea before it's execution? Even dreams have an impact on the physical world.

    I don't know... yet. The scientific method has been applied to learn more about the nature of both thoughts and dreams than anyone would have thought possible 500 years ago, so who is to say that it won't one day be capable of that.

    I have enjoyed our debate, I believe that debate has value in its ability to make one think and refine their own ideas. I will do my best to examine your arguments, but as things stand now I still see no way for metaphysics or philosophy to prove the existence of a soul, creator, or life after death. I believe that philosophy and metaphysics are tools for introspection, therefore they will only tell you more about who you are as a person, not about the nature of the Universe.

  • redvip2000

    Pfff...the miracle of Fatima. What hogwash.

    ..."As before, the figure appeared, and again only to the children. Identifying herself as 'the Lady of the Rosary,' she urged repentance and the building of a chapel at the site. After predicting an end to [World War I] and giving the children certain undisclosed visions, the lady lifted her hands to the sky...."

    How convenient that this figure appeared but only 3 people were able to see it. We must wonder why this figure refuses to be openly seen by everyone. Wouldn't that make it easier for everybody to believe?

    Imagine that, predicting that a war will end.... well that certainly must be a godly figure then. Must be so hard to predict that a war will end.

  • deegee


    "Sorry but I really think Spiritism and/or Spiritualism are complete BS. I can't even bother to discuss things like that."

    That's a very strange thing for a Bible believer to say given the Bible's warning against engaging in Spiritism. Even the Bible agrees that the "spirits of the dead" can be contacted via this means:

    Leviticus 19:31:

    "Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them.

    Deuteronomy 18:9-12:

    "When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord."

    Leviticus 20:6:

    "I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them. I will cut him off from his people."

    Leviticus 20:27:

    "A man or woman who is a medium or a spiritist among you must be put to death."

  • deegee



    Spiritism and/or Spiritualism are complete BS

    then why did Saul consult a spirit medium to conjure up the spirit of the deceased prophet Samuel, to ask his counsel regarding the pending Philistine attack?

    Why was Saul penalized with death for breaking God's Law regarding consulting the dead if consulting the dead is all BS?

    Saul was a firm believer in this method for contacting the dead Samuel:

    1 Samuel 28:3-22:

    "Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had lamented for him and buried him in Ramah, in his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the spiritists out of the land.

    Then the Philistines gathered together, and came and encamped at Shunem. So Saul gathered all Israel together, and they encamped at Gilboa. When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets.

    Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.”

    And his servants said to him, “In fact,there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor.”

    So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a séance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”

    Then the woman said to him, “Look, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the spiritists from the land. Why then do you lay a snare for my life, to cause me to die?”

    And Saul swore to her by the Lord, saying, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.”

    Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
    And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”

    When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”

    And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
    And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
    So he said to her, “What is his form?”

    And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

    Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

    And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”

    Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy? And the Lord has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
    Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day.
    Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”

    Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day or all night.

    And the woman came to Saul and saw that he was severely troubled, and said to him, “Look, your maidservant has obeyed your voice, and I have put my life in my hands and heeded the words which you spoke to me.
    Now therefore, please, heed also the voice of your maidservant, and let me set a piece of bread before you; and eat, that you may have strength when you go on your way.”

    According to the Bible, Saul died because of consulting a spirit medium for guidance:

    1 Chronicles 10:13-14:

    "Saul died because he was unfaithful to the Lord; he did not keep the word of the Lord and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the Lord."

  • deegee


    Is the apostle Paul's encounter with a psychic medium also BS?

    Acts 16:16-19:

    "Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, 'These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.'

    And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, 'I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.' And he came out that very hour. But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities."

  • John_Mann

    Sorry deegee but for me there are just two options left: Catholicism or oblivion (nihilism and atheism).

    Spiritism/Spiritualism is BS.

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