Time of the end - a TRINITY puzzler.

by BoogerMan 66 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat

    A careful reading of the second-century apologists shows that their occasional description of the Logos as γγελος is neither an assertion that Christ belongs ontologically to the angelic order nor a precursor of the modern Watchtower claim that Jesus is Michael. The difficulty arises from a semantic shift that separates the ancient Greek noun γγελος, whose primary sense is “messenger,” from the English loan-word “angel,” which in ordinary parlance designates a created spirit of fixed rank. When the Church Fathers wished to speak of a created angel, they normally supplied an adjective such as “one of the angels” or “one of the ministers,” whereas in Christological contexts they explained why the Word may properly be called γγελος, namely because he is the primordial envoy who makes the Father known. To transpose that functional title into an ontological claim is to wrench their language out of its literary and theological setting.

    Justin’s First Apology VI is the passage frequently marshalled in favour of an Arian reading. The Greek, however, is syntactically ambiguous and the critical editions acknowledge competing construals. A straightforward translation, retaining the order of the words, is possible: “We worship and adore the Father … and the Son who came forth from him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow him and are made like him, and the prophetic Spirit.” Even if that rendering is adopted, Justin is not assimilating the Son to the created order; the Son heads the clause, receives divine worship together with the Father, and is specified as the one whom the angelic host follows and resembles. The phrase “other good angels” therefore presupposes a categorical difference between leader and followers, not an identity of nature. Moreover, the same author insists only a few chapters later (XIII) that Christians worship the Son κα δετερον τξιν, that is, in second rank, a formulation he repeats in XVI and LXI. The triadic pattern—Father, Son, Spirit—here receives explicit liturgical application, while the angels remain absent; hence scholars from Grabe through Schaff have judged that the mention of angels in VI, if taken with the verb “taught,” explains to the emperor that Christ instructs not only human beings but the angelic ministers as well. Either way, worship is restricted to the three hypostases of the Godhead.

    Justin’s Dialogue with Trypho LV–LVI removes the residual ambiguity by defining his vocabulary. The Logos is “called γγελος because he announces to men whatever the Maker of all things wills to declare.” The causal clause—δι τ γγλλειν—makes the point unmistakable: the title derives from the activity of revelation; it is not an index of created status. In the same breath Justin affirms that this Messenger “was God even before the creation of the world,” appeared in the theophanies to Abraham and Moses, and is now incarnate in Jesus Christ. One cannot coherently read “even God” (κα Θες) as a predicate of a creature whilst maintaining fidelity to Justin’s insistence that Christians render him λατρεία, the worship owed exclusively to the one true God. To juxtapose “we worship the Father, the Son and the prophetic Spirit” with “we are not atheists” is to declare that denying the full divinity of the Son would collapse Christian monotheism.

    The same semantic logic governs Clement of Alexandria. When he calls the Logos γγελος (Paed. I.7) he has already laid down the hermeneutical key in Chapter 3: the Lord “ministers all good to us both as God and as man.” The word γγελος serves him as a metaphor for the revelatory economy of the Old Covenant; it is forced into alien service only when modern readers isolate a single sentence and forget the ontological claims that frame it. Trinitarian theology therefore urges caution against one-liner proof-texting in patristic literature as well. Terms are plastic, context is decisive, and an author’s controlling analogy—fire from fire, light from light, rational word from rational mind—must govern the interpretation of any ontologically subordinate image.

    Nor does the Arian appeal to “other good angels” reckon with the apologists’ doctrine of creation. Justin distinguishes between the Logos, “begotten before all creatures,” and the angelic race, “created” (ποίημα, κτίσμα). A being begotten of the Father’s own substance cannot simultaneously belong to the order of creatures without collapsing the apologists’ most basic metaphysical contrast, a contrast they borrowed from Scripture itself: in principio the uncreated Word is with God and is God; through him all things that came to be were made (John 1:1-3). Hebrews attributes that creative agency to the Son precisely to demonstrate his transcendence over angels, who worship him and whose very winds and flames he fashions (Heb 1:5-14). To merge Christ into the angelic host would unravel the epistle’s argument and confound the Church’s baptismal confession, already discernible in Justin’s era.

    The modern identification of Jesus with Michael the archangel therefore mistakes both biblical exegesis and patristic semantics. Michael is explicitly “one of the chief princes(Dan 10:13), a creature who, in Jude 9, does not dare to pronounce judgment in his own name. The pre-existent Christ, by contrast, receives titles, functions and honors reserved for Yahweh alone: he forgives sins, commands worship, and bears the incommunicable Name. The Church Fathers who call him γγελος do so to underline this paradox of divine condescension: the eternal Word stoops to become the envoy, yet without surrendering his equality with the Sender. If that trope is flattened into the claim that Christ is merely a higher member of the angelic species, the Gospel’s central mystery—the Word became flesh—loses both its metaphysical depth and its soteriological power.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Your comment:

    the eternal Word stoops to become the envoy, yet without surrendering his equality with the Sender.

    defies common sense and scripture.

    John 13:16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat

    Tell me, how were you at mathematics in school? “Not greater” doesn’t require it to be lesser. Since you referred to common sense, after all. No one ever said that the Son is greater than the Father. Although Chalcedonian Christology does assert that the Son as a man is not God and is ontologically inferior to God.

    Generally speaking, there’s a significant difference between acts of “sending;“ even a king can be “sent“ on a diplomatic visit by his advisor, or to a spa by his physician, without this implying the superiority of those sending him. Human missions are characterized mainly by two elements: the one who is sent acts under the influence of the one who sends; and, in order to fulfill the mission, he chooses situations and carries out activities appropriate to the nature and content of the mission. As for the influence of the sender on the one sent, this can generally be of three kinds. The sending can be a command, by which a superior sends his subordinate; it can be advice, by which, for example, a physician sends a king to the baths; or it can be an origin, by which, for instance, a mother brings forth—“sends”—her child into the world, or the sun sends its rays to the earth. If we speak about the relationship of sending and mission among the divine persons, only the third basis of sending can be considered.

    When Scripture speaks of the Father “sending” the Son, and the Son being “sent,” this does not indicate an inferiority or lesser status, but simply expresses the eternal relationship of origin within the Trinity, which is reflected in the temporal mission of the Son in the world. The concept of “sending” (missio) in the context of the Trinity differs fundamentally from human sending, which is usually based on authority or hierarchy. In the Trinity, the mission is based solely on the eternal procession or origin of the persons: the Father sends the Son because the Son proceeds from the Father, not because the Son is in any way less divine or less worthy. Thus, in the context of the Trinitarian missions, being “sent” refers to the manifestation of the Son’s origin from the Father in the world, not to any ontological subordination. Furthermore, the new mode of presence brought about by the mission (sending) does not create an ontological hierarchy within the Trinity. Rather, it establishes a new relationship with creation, not among the divine persons themselves.

    Therefore, John 13:16 does not address the inner-Trinitarian relationship of essence (ousia), but rather the relationship between Jesus, his disciples, and the Father within the economy of salvation. The Son’s being “sent” refers to his mission in the world, not to his divinity or status within the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinitarian missions fully preserves the ontological equality of the Father and the Son: the difference is not of nature or dignity, but of origin and mission.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    I don’t know, a regular person reads the statement about the person sent not being greater than the sender and it reads like a common sense observation that the sender is obviously greater than the person being sent. A Trinitarian reads it and thinks, “well technically, they could be equal, if we ignore context, and common sense, so yeah let’s go with that, they’re equal.”

    Plus there is the fact that Jesus flat out says, “the Father is greater than I”. There is that too.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat

    The antithesis you propose rests on two passages—John 13 and John 14 —read in isolation, lifted from their literary and theological setting, and treated as though the Fourth Gospel were a string of pro-Trinitarian and anti-Trinitarian slogans. Proper exegesis cannot proceed by extracting a single clause (“the messenger is not greater than the one who sent him,” “the Father is greater than I”) and allowing that clause, abstracted from both context and Christology, to overrule the evangelist’s own overarching depiction of Jesus. It is precisely because the early Church took the total Johannine witness with absolute seriousness that it repudiated Arianism and eventually employed Chalcedonian language to articulate who the incarnate Son is. To grasp why your reading fails, one must attend to (i) literary context, (ii) semantic nuance, and (iii) Johannine theology as a whole.

    John 13 is an enacted parable: the incarnate Lord kneels to wash the disciples’ feet, then explains that his gesture is paradigmatic for their own life of humble service. He therefore frames the lesson in proverbial form: “A slave is not greater than his master, nor a messenger (apostolos) greater than the one who sent him.” The point is hortatory, not metaphysical. Jesus does not here undertake an ontological taxonomy of masters versus slaves or senders versus agents; he reinforces the moral inversion he has just dramatized. To wrench the proverb out of its parenetic setting and make it a metaphysical proof that every “sent one” is by nature inferior to the sender is to miss the rhetorical genre entirely. The same Gospel has already declared of the Son, “Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him” (5:23)—an impossible formulation if “sending” entailed ontological inferiority. Indeed, the evangelist insists in the same chapter that the Son does “whatever the Father does” (5:19); such unrestricted sharing of the divine prerogative cannot be squared with creaturely status.

    John 14 is uttered the night before the cross, in the very discourse where Jesus promises the Paraclete and foretells his own glorification. “The Father is greater than I” is thus spoken at the climax of the Son’s self-emptying mission, moments before Gethsemane. Patristic writers from Athanasius through Augustine and Cyril of Alexandria recognized the obvious: one must distinguish the eternal Son “in the μορφή of God” (Phil 2:6) from the same Son who, “having taken the form of a servant,” now stands poised to suffer. It is the condescended, incarnate economy—his visible, kenotic state—that is decidedly less “great” than the ineffable glory in which he subsists ab aeterno with the Father. Two chapters later Jesus will pray, “Glorify me, Father, with the glory that I had with you before the world existed” (17:5), explicitly locating that pre-temporal glory on the same side of the Creator–creature divide as the Father’s own majesty. The evangelist gives no hint that Jesus was ever a mere creature subsequently “promoted”; rather, the Son voluntarily “came forth from the Father and has come into the world” (16:28). The Church Fathers therefore read “greater” (meízōn) as a relational predicate applicable to the condition of the incarnate Son, not a denial of the one divine essence (ousia) that Father and Son hold indivisibly.

    Your appeal to “common sense” is simply an appeal to an unexamined anthropological model of mission. In human affairs, yes, the sender often outranks the envoy; but Scripture itself furnishes counter-examples in which the envoy’s status equals or even exceeds that of the sender (Joseph sent by Pharaoh with plenipotentiary power; the Davidic king sent as Yahweh’s vice-regent). More to the point, intra-Trinitarian sending cannot be mapped one-to-one onto creaturely analogies, because the divine processions differ categorically: the Son’s being-from-the-Father is an eternal, indivisible communication of the divine nature. The temporal mission simply manifests that eternal relation within history. Hence Augustine’s dictum in De Trinitate: missio sequitur originem—mission follows upon, but does not diminish, eternal generation.

    Finally, if one actually follows John’s narrative arc, the cumulative Christological data insist on equality of essence: the Word was God (1:1); the Son gives life as the Father does (5:21); the Son, like the Father, is to be “honored” with the honor due to God alone (5:23); Isaiah’s vision of Yahweh’s glory is said to be the Son’s glory (12:41); Thomas confesses the risen Christ as ho Theós (20:28) and the author ratifies that confession. Any interpretation of 13:16 or 14:28 that reverses those affirmations places the reader, not the evangelist, in the seat of judgment.

    Therefore, the “greater than” proof-text, rehearsed ad nauseam since the days of Arius, fails to trouble Chalcedonian Christology for the simple reason that it misconstrues genre, ignores context, and truncates the wider theological horizon of John’s Gospel. The Church reads Scripture neither by suppressing “common sense” nor by clinging to one-line slogans, but by listening to the full symphony of revelation—a symphony in which the incarnate humility of the Son never negates, but precisely reveals, the eternal glory he shares with the Father.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard
    When a Thomist speaks of the “unified reality” that grounds the human capacities for thought, love, freedom, and bodily life, he is pointing to the substantial form of the living human being: the rational or intellective soul. In classical hylomorphism every material substance is a composite of matter (the principle of indeterminacy, the stuff that can receive different shapes) and form (the principle of determination, that which makes the stuff to be this particular kind of thing and equips it for its characteristic operations).

    Alright. So "essence" is the "stuff" that causes something to be what it is. I'm gathering it is not really meaningful to talk about what makes up a particular essence, or essence in general. It's very abstract, and yet something real - you call an "underlying reality" and a "formative principle". And .....

    In plants and animals the form is already called “soul,” because it is that by which the organism is alive at all; in man the soul is further specified as rational, since it founds powers that rise above the merely organic—universal intellection and free choice.

    So the "soul" is the essence? At least with living things? And you would say a being "possesses" a human soul, and from that essence it will ultimately display the essential (from essence) traits that categorized the being as human?

    DNA, neurons, hormonal cascades, and all the biochemical marvels we chart with microscopes belong to the material side of the composite. They are the structures and dispositions that the soul employs as instruments, the way a musician uses strings or pipes. Remove the soul, and the molecular patterns may linger for a while, but the coordinating principle is gone and the organism soon dissolves into a heap of tissues. Conversely, without that molecular scaffolding the soul cannot express its life outwardly: even the highest intellect needs a healthy cortex and sensory data to reason about justice or geometry.

    Where does the concousness reside? With the essence?

    Form and matter, therefore, interpenetrate without confusion: the soul is not a ghost floating in a machine, nor is it reducible to genetic code. It is the immanent cause that makes the bodily matter to be a this living, human body—one substance, not two loosely coupled agents.
    So the “something there” is not an unknown x that we posit only to cover our ignorance; it is the formal cause whose existence we infer from evident effects.

    Alright, and the formal cause, even when it imperfectly directs / causes a being, will tend to push the being toward what we would call a "nature" - which is identifiable by certain traits?

    Whenever we see a genuinely human act—abstract thought, free consent, moral resolve—we know that a principle proportionate to such acts must be inside the agent, because nothing can give what it does not possess.

    So would you say that we decern the presence of a human soul or essence by observing the nature - the outward expression of the essence as it directs, showing certain unique traits?

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @MeanMrMustard

    In Aristotelian-Thomistic hylomorphism the language of “essence,” “form,” and “soul” can easily appear slippery if the distinct intentions of each term are not kept steadily in view. The essence (quidditas) of a material being answers the question what is it?; it embraces both the specifying form and the individuating matter, because this man and that oak are alike human or arboreal precisely in virtue of the same definable content even while they differ numerically by the diversity of their portions of matter. When one then asks through what intrinsic principle is that essence actuated so as to be alive? the reply, for living beings, is “the soul.” The soul therefore is not the whole essence but the essence’s formal constituent, considered precisely as a source of vital operations. In plants and brute animals, we speak of vegetative or sensitive souls; in man of a rational soul. Hence to say that a human being “possesses a soul” is a convenient shorthand, yet strictly the soul is not an added property that a prior subject could lack or acquire; it is the very formal principle by which the composite is a subject at all. The human individual is a rational animal in virtue of the informing soul.

    The rational or intellectual soul is the form of the human body of itself and essentially
    [Substantia animae rationalis seu intellectiva sit forma corporis humani per se et essentialiter.]

    “... we reprove as erroneous and inimical to the Catholic faith every doctrine or position rashly asserting or turning to doubt that the substance of the rational or intellective soul truly and in itself is not a form of the human body, defining, so that the truth of sincere faith may be known to all, and the approach to all errors may be cut off, lest they steal in upon us, that whoever shall obstinately presume in turn to assert, define, or hold that the rational or intellective soul is not the form of the human body in itself and essentially must be regarded as a heretic.— Council of Vienne (1312)

    From this it follows that the intellectual acts which most reveal our specific difference—abstract judgment, universal reasoning, free self-determination—are not caused by brain chemistry in the way an electric spark causes ignition; rather, the rational soul elicits these acts through bodily organs as through instruments proportioned to the task of presenting phantasms and concepts for higher consideration. Remove the body, and the soul’s natural field of operation is truncated (hence the need for resurrection); remove the soul, and no ensemble of electro-chemical events can rise on its own to the level of intentional universality. Consciousness, then, “resides” in the essence only insofar as the form is the seat of all immanent acts; but it is expressed as a psychosomatic event, the whole composite thinking and willing through the mediation of neuro-physiological processes. One need not imagine a spatial location where consciousness sits—any more than the form of triangularity “sits” in the three-sided diagram—but rather a metaphysical root from which the life-activities spring.

    When you speak of the formal cause “pushing” a being toward its nature you are touching the Thomistic axiom that operation follows being (operatio sequitur esse). Because the form specifies what-ness, it also specifies the range of characteristic acts; because man is rational, he tends by intrinsic inclination toward intelligible truth and deliberate good. To observe those acts in the concrete is therefore to recognize the presence of a proportionate principle: where there is deliberative choice, there must be an intellectual appetite capable of universal ends; where there is true intellection, there must be an immaterial power elevated above merely sensory images. Thus, we infer the soul, not as a deus ex machina to mask our ignorance, but as the adequate explanatory ground of manifest effects that outstrip the powers of matter as matter.

    It is indeed through the phenomena of a being’s operations that we discern its nature—yet the Thomist cautions that these operations are not merely epiphenomenal “expressions” of an occult substrate. They are the actuality of the form in act. Consequently, to diagnose a human essence is to encounter a unified substance whose visible behaviors stand to its invisible principle not as symptoms to a hidden cause, but as the very unfolding of what it is to be human. A crippled will or impaired intellect may hinder that unfolding, but even then, the radical aptitude persists, for the form remains the same: a damaged violin does not cease to be a violin, nor does a comatose man cease to be rational.

    In sum, the soul is neither an abstract label nor an ethereal passenger. It is the intrinsic actuality that makes this body a living, thinking someone rather than a cleverly arranged something. Because nothing can put forth what it does not first possess at least virtually, the presence of genuinely rational acts authorizes the inference to a rational form. That inference, though philosophical, has immediate existential resonance, for it grounds both the inviolable dignity of every human life and our ordered openness to the transcendent source of intellect and will.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit