Time of the end - a TRINITY puzzler.

by BoogerMan 35 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Nobody can teach God anything, (According to the Bible)

    Isaiah 40:14 14
    Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him,
    and who taught him the right way?
    Who was it that taught him knowledge,
    or showed him the path of understanding?

    Yet there are things Jesus doesn’t know that God knows. Therefore Jesus is not God.

    If you are saying that both Jesus and God can be called “God”, but that God is superior to Jesus in knowledge (and power and eternity) then that’s actually what JWs believe, not Trinitarians.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    If you are saying that both Jesus and God can be called “God”, but that God is superior to Jesus in knowledge (and power and eternity) then that’s actually what JWs believe, not Trinitarians.

    Jesus and the Father both (tho separate beings) are called God by the Trinitarians. "God" is a title. The Father is clearly superior in knowledge and the head of the Son, Jesus per the scriptures (Catholic and protestant). Yet the Son retains the title of God.

    As I said somewhere in another thread, the teachings of JW and Trinitarians are not as different as they may first appear to be.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    And if one reads through the book of John, Jesus often, with deference, refers to the One that sent him. Usually the one being sent as representative, is the lesser or inferior of the one that sent him (cf. John 3:17, 28, 34; 5:23, 24, 30, 37; 6:28, 38, 39, 44, 57; 7:16, 18, 28, 29, 33; 8:16, 19, 26, 29, 42; 9:4, etc.)

    :

  • BoogerMan
    BoogerMan

    @ Halcon - You said,

    1) "Because the Trinity doctrine still has the Father and the Son as being two separate beings (sharing the same title of God),

    &

    2) "The title of God however is held also by the Son. Which is to say that God the Son is not all-knowing."

    a) Are you & the Trinity doctrine saying the Father & the Son are now 2 separate individuals?

    b) Are you & the Trinity doctrine saying that Jesus is not all-knowing?



  • Halcon
    Halcon
    a) Are you & the Trinity doctrine saying the Father & the Son are now 2 separate individuals?

    Not just now. The Trinity doctrine always held that the Father and the Son are two separate persons.

    Are you & the Trinity doctrine saying that Jesus is not all-knowing?

    Clearly, according to the scripture. But even without having all knowledge and being in subjection to the Father, Jesus retains the title of God.

    This has always been the Trinity doctrine.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    The passages you adduce—Matthew 28:18, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, the “greater-than” logia of John, and the Son’s ignorance in Mark 13:32—have been marshalled against Nicene Christology since the fourth century. Yet they do not refute the doctrine of Christ’s consubstantiality with the Father; rather, when read in their literary and theological context they illustrate the classical distinction, already implicit in the New Testament, between the immanent Trinity (who God is in se) and the economic Trinity (how the one God acts in salvation history). A Thomist analysis clarifies why the texts you cite, far from disproving Christ’s divinity, actually presuppose it.

    Matthew 28:18 is programmatic. δόθη μοι πσα ξουσία—“all authority has been given to me.” The participle denotes a once-for-all eschatological bestowal upon the incarnate, now-risen Jesus. Two observations follow. First, Jesus speaks as the Son who has become obedient unto death (Phil 2:6-11). The grant of universal authority is the Father’s public vindication of the obedient Servant; it presupposes the economical mission, not an ontological deficiency in the Son’s deity. Second, the text echoes Daniel 7:13-14, where the “one like a son of man” receives an everlasting dominion from the Ancient of Days. Second-Temple Jewish exegesis understood that figure to share in God’s own prerogatives, including the reception of universal worship. Matthew presents Jesus as the fulfilment of that vision; the “given” authority is therefore not a concession to a creature but the public enthronement of the God-man who already possesses divine authority “by nature” (κατ φύσιν) and now receives it “by right of conquest” (κατ ργον) as the second Adam (cf. Aquinas, ST III q. 58 a. 4).

    The divine essence is one and indivisible, shared equally by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, within the Trinity there exists an order of relations—relations not of inequality or subordination in essence, but of origin and procession. Thus, when Christ speaks of authority given to Him (Matt 28:18), He speaks in reference to His incarnational role, that is, in His assumed human nature. The "giving" or "delegation" of power does not imply any ontological limitation within the divine nature, but rather reflects the economic role Christ freely assumed as mediator between God and humanity. The distinction between the immanent Trinity (God’s inner life and essence) and the economic Trinity (God’s actions in salvation history) is crucial here. In the divine economy, the Son voluntarily receives authority from the Father as part of His mission, not due to any intrinsic inferiority or inadequacy of His divine nature.

    The appeal to 1 Corinthians 15 overlooks Paul’s deliberate oscillation between Christ’s mediatorial office and his eternal sonship. Verses 24-28 describe the telos of history: when the risen Christ, having subdued every hostile power, “hands over the kingdom to God the Father.” The final “subjection” (ποταγήσεται) is not the capitulation of an inferior deity to a superior; it is the eschatological completion of the Son’s mediatorial mission. The logic is covenantal and liturgical, not ontological. As Aquinas remarks (In 1 Cor 15, lect. 7), the Son “subjects himself” in the sense that he presents the redeemed creation—himself as its head and the Church as his body—to the Father, so that “God may be all in all,” i.e., that the triune God may transparently reign without the provisional structures of redemptive history. The act presupposes that Christ is the universal Lord who alone can deliver the kingdom; it does not demote him to the status of a creature.

    The Son’s subjection to the Father is not indicative of an ontological inferiority but reveals the consummation of Christ’s mediatorial role. Aquinas, following the Church Fathers (especially Augustine and Gregory of Nazianzus), emphasizes that the submission described is specifically tied to Christ’s incarnate mission. Once Christ has brought creation to its perfection, He hands the kingdom to the Father as a completed task. This act of subjection does not compromise His eternal divinity, because the subordination described is not within the immanent Trinity but in the economy of salvation. Thus, the Son’s submission is not one of essence or nature, but a voluntary and economic submission in His incarnational capacity as Redeemer and Mediator.

    Hence, when the New Testament says “all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me” (Matthew 28:18), or when Paul writes that God “put all things under his feet” (1 Cor 15:27), it refers to the Son’s incarnate and messianic role as the God-man, the new Adam, the one in whom all things are recapitulated and through whom redemption is accomplished. The language of “giving” and “subjection” pertains to Christ as mediator, as the Second Adam, not to his eternal divine identity as the Logos. The same is true when Paul writes that the Son will be “subject” so that “God may be all in all” (1 Cor 15:28): this is an eschatological statement about the fulfillment of Christ’s mediatorial work, after which, as Aquinas explains (ST I, q.42, a.4 ad 1), “the humanity will cease to reign,” that is, the mission of the Incarnate Word as redeemer will be complete, and the order of salvation will return to the Father as source. None of this entails an inferiority of essence but rather expresses the fitting order of salvation history (economia), in which the incarnate Son, in his assumed humanity, offers all things to the Father.

    Furthermore, the assertion that God cannot “give Himself” authority or power fundamentally misunderstands the Trinitarian distinction of persons. The Father and Son are distinct persons sharing a single, indivisible divine essence. The Father giving authority to the Son is an eternal relational reality within the Godhead itself—an expression of the eternal generation of the Son from the Father, who receives everything from the Father eternally and fully. This is not a temporal acquisition or delegation of something previously lacking, but rather a reflection of their eternal relational distinctions. Such eternal relational distinctions do not create hierarchy or inequality in essence, as the Arians mistakenly conclude.

    This distinction is manifest throughout the New Testament. When Jesus says, “the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), he is not denying his own divinity, but referencing his incarnate state—his voluntary assumption of the limitations and lowliness of human nature (cf. Philippians 2:6-8: “though he was in the form of God… he emptied himself, taking the form of a servant”). In Trinitarian theology, the “greater” refers to rank or role within the redemptive economy, not to essence or nature. As Athanasius himself writes (Against the Arians, III.33): “The Son is not the Father, for the Father is Father, and the Son is Son; but the nature is one, and all things that are the Father’s are the Son’s.” Thus, “given,” “sent,” and “subject” are terms that describe the Son’s relation within the economy of salvation and his eternal relation of origin, not his ontological status as God.

    The syllogism about omniscience repeats the fourth-century Agnoete error. Classical Christology distinguishes three modes of human knowing in Christ—beatific, infused, and acquired—none of which diminishes the omniscience of the Logos. When Jesus says the Son does not know the day or the hour (Mark 13:32), he speaks qua homo and qua legatus, not qua Deus. Athanasius, Gregory Nazianzen, and Augustine all insist that if the Logos created time (John 1:3; Col 1:16-17), he necessarily comprehends every temporal moment. The “ignorance” therefore belongs to the economy of revelation: the Son, in the posture of the servant, withholds a datum not assigned to his prophetic office. Isaiah 40:14, invoked to prove that God can learn nothing, actually undergirds the Nicene position: the Son, who is the Wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:24), is precisely the One through whom the Father teaches and enlightens. To deny the Son’s omniscience is to bifurcate divine wisdom, which Scripture refuses to do (John 16:15).

    The classical, Chalcedonian understanding of the Incarnation clearly states that Christ is fully God and fully man—possessing both divine and human natures united in a single hypostasis or person. Thus, when Scripture describes Christ as not knowing something—such as in Mark 13:32 (“the Son does not know the hour”)—it refers explicitly to Christ’s human knowledge, subject to genuine human limitations due to the authentic humanity He assumed. Christ’s divine intellect, being identical with the divine essence itself, is omniscient. Simultaneously, His human intellect possesses human limitations. This dual reality—fully divine and fully human—is neither contradictory nor paradoxical, but theologically coherent, precisely safeguarded by Chalcedonian and Thomistic distinctions between nature (what something is) and person (who someone is).

    Isaiah 40:14 highlights God’s incomprehensible divine wisdom as Creator. Yet, it says nothing about the voluntary, economic, incarnational limitations freely embraced by the Son. In classical Christology, the voluntary assumption of human limitations by the Son (Philippians 2:6-7: “He emptied himself, taking the form of a servant”) does not entail ontological inferiority or loss of divine omniscience. Rather, it affirms that God the Son fully entered into human conditions, including learning and growth, without compromising His eternal divine nature and omniscience as God. Christ’s human soul possesses both infused and acquired knowledge (ST III, q.9-12), and is capable of experiencing human development while remaining united to the divine Person who is omniscient. Thus, any “ignorance” or learning ascribed to Jesus is not to the divine nature, but to his assumed human nature—freely accepted for our sake.

    Nor does the Johannine language of mission imply ontological subordination. In Second-Temple Judaism a shalia (emissary) bears the authority of the sender without diminution of his personal dignity. John’s Gospel intensifies the metaphor: the Son is sent from the Father because he eternally “proceeds” from the Father (John 8:42). The sending manifests the begetting; it does not inaugurate it. Thus, when Jesus says, “the Father is greater than I” (John 14:28), he speaks relationally, not essentially—the Father is the fons divinitatis, the principle without principle, while the Son is eternally from the Father. Augustine’s axiom remains decisive: greater refers to the mode of origin, equal to the unity of nature (Trin. I .15). To confuse taxis (order) with natura (essence) is to revive the very Arian logic condemned at Nicaea.

    The objection that “God cannot be given power” misconstrues Nicene theology. Per modum naturae, the Son possesses omnipotence eternally; per modum dispensationis, the Father publicly “gives” that same omnipotence to the incarnate Son in his mediatorial role. The two assertions are perfectly compatible once one distinguishes between the Son’s eternal generation and his temporal mission. The Apostles themselves articulate this twofold pattern: the risen Christ is both “designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness” (Rom 1:4) and already the eternal Son by whose agency all things were made (Col 1:16).

    The citation of Johannine passages wherein Christ speaks deferentially of “the one who sent Him” fails to recognize John’s robust Trinitarian theology. In the Fourth Gospel, Christ’s being “sent” does indeed signify His role as divine emissary, but it never implies ontological inferiority. Instead, Johannine theology consistently affirms Christ’s divinity (John 1:1; 8:58; 10:30; 20:28). The emphasis upon being “sent” highlights the relational and economic dimensions of Christ’s incarnation, not a hierarchical subordination within the Trinity. Christ’s identification as “sent” serves rather to stress His intimate unity of mission and essence with the Father: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). Thus, far from undermining Trinitarianism, Johannine language reinforces the profound relational unity and equality of Father and Son.

    In John’s Gospel, the sending of the Son by the Father is the outward expression (missio) of the Son’s eternal origin (processio). The One who sends is not superior by nature to the One sent; rather, the mission manifests the Son’s eternal begottenness, not his createdness. When the risen Christ says, “As the Father has sent me, so I send you” (John 20:21), the apostles are not made less human by being sent; their mission reflects the dignity and trust bestowed by Christ. Similarly, the Son’s being sent in the economy of salvation manifests his eternal relation of origin—begotten, not made, true God from true God.

    The Father is the principium, or source, of the Son and Spirit—not as a greater or older deity, but as the eternal fount of divinity, from whom the Son is begotten and the Spirit proceeds. This procession is not a temporal event but an eternal relation. The Son is from the Father, not after the Father; the Father gives all that He is—including His essence, authority, and knowledge—to the Son, who receives it eternally, not as a creature receives from its creator, but as Light from Light, God from God (cf. Nicene Creed). Aquinas states (ST I, q.42, a.4): “The Son is said to be less than the Father in His humanity, but not in His divinity; for the divine nature is one and the same in Father and Son.” In the order of nature, the Son is consubstantial, co-equal, co-eternal with the Father; in the order of relation, the Son is from the Father, and so it is proper to speak of Him “receiving” from the Father without this implying any lack or inferiority in being.

    Finally, to claim that the Nicene Fathers rested their case on an “exact wording” fallacy is historically inaccurate. Athanasius’ argument in Contra Arianos is not that Scripture must contain the precise term μοούσιος; it is that Scripture bears witness to the realities the term safeguards—namely that whatever is said of the Father as God is said of the Son in the same sense, save only that the Father is unoriginate principle and the Son begotten. The homoousion, like Chalcedon’s “two natures,” is a hermeneutical fence erected to protect the data of revelation from inconsistent inference. Remove that fence and the New Testament’s christological claims collapse into contradiction: either Christ shares Yahweh’s prerogatives (forgiveness of sins, creation, worship, final judgment) or the New Testament authors blasphemously ascribe to a creature what belongs to God alone.

    Athanasius’s hermeneutical method was precisely not founded on an arbitrary insistence on exact wording, but rather on careful theological discernment of scriptural context and intent. Athanasius differentiated carefully between passages referring to the economy of salvation—Christ’s mission as incarnate mediator—and those revealing His eternal, ontological nature as divine Logos. This distinction is fundamental to Trinitarian theology and provides clarity when interpreting seemingly contrasting scriptural texts. Athanasius’s apologetic is not that the word “homoousios” or “Trinity” appears verbatim in the text, but that the substantive content of these doctrines is necessitated by the data of revelation. Athanasius contends for the real, consubstantial divinity of the Son, precisely because the language and actions ascribed to Christ in Scripture cannot be reconciled with mere creatureliness, no matter how exalted. He reasons not from the presence or absence of exact words, but from the revealed economy and the metaphysics of divine generation. The Arian attempt to reduce these mysteries to a simple hierarchy of beings is foreign to the logic of the biblical text and the patristic consensus.

    Hene, all the passages cited (Matthew 28:18, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28, John 14:28) are fully explicable within the Trinitarian framework, as referring to the Son in his incarnate mission and mediatorial role. They do not suggest an inferiority of essence, but a distinction of relation and function within the Godhead. The distinction between being “sent” and “sender” is not a distinction of nature, but of person and mission. The subjection of the Son at the consummation of history is the completion of his salvific office, not a surrender of divinity. Thus, the doctrine of the Trinity, rooted in Scripture and clarified in the Fathers, preserves the full equality of the divine persons while respecting the richness and depth of the biblical revelation—a richness that Arian and Unitarian readings can neither account for nor do justice to.

    In sum, these texts pose no threat to Nicene faith once the economic-immanent distinction, the hypostatic union, and the eternal processions are properly understood. They reveal the paradoxical glory of the Incarnation: the very One who, as Son by nature, possesses all authority, knowledge, and life communicates these gifts in history through the assumed humanity, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow” and, when the mission is consummated, “God shall be all in all.”

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