Trinity...cross...Does it matter?

by NikL 39 Replies latest jw friends


    Trinity...cross...Does it matter?

    it does if you want accurate knowledge of Jesus Christ and the church to him that he paid with his own blood.

  • Finkelstein

    The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from trinus, "threefold")[1] holds that God is three consubstantial persons[2] or hypostases[3]—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios).[4] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[5][6][7]

    According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths, there is only one God in three persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Lateran Council declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds") and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and each is God, whole and entire".[8] Accordingly, the whole work of creation and grace is seen as a single operation common to all three divine persons, in which each shows forth what is proper to him in the Trinity, so that all things are "from the Father", "through the Son" and "in the Holy Spirit".[9]

    While the Fathers of the Church saw even Old Testament elements such as the appearance of three men to Abraham in Book of Genesis, chapter 18, as foreshadowings of the Trinity, it was the New Testament that they saw as a basis for developing the concept of the Trinity. The most influential of the New Testament texts seen as implying the teaching of the Trinity was Matthew 28:19, which mandated baptizing "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". Reflection, proclamation, and dialogue led to the formulation of the doctrine that was felt to correspond to the data in the Bible. The simplest outline of the doctrine was formulated in the 4th century, largely in terms of rejection of what was considered not to be consonant with general Christian belief. Further elaboration continued in the succeeding centuries.[10]

    Scripture contains neither the word Trinity,[11] nor an expressly formulated doctrine of the Trinity. Rather, according to the Christian theology, it "bears witness to" the activity of a God who can only be understood in Trinitarian terms.[12] The doctrine did not take its definitive shape until late in the fourth century.[13] During the intervening period, various tentative solutions, some more and some less satisfactory, were proposed.[14] Trinitarianism contrasts with nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity in two persons, or two deities), Unitarianism (one deity in one person, analogous to Jewish interpretation of the Shema and Muslim belief in Tawhid), Oneness Pentecostalism or Modalism (one deity manifested in three separate aspects). Additionally, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate deities, two of which possess separate bodies of flesh and bones, while the Holy Ghost has yet to receive his body.[15]

  • Steel

    i think studying what new testament thought about who Jesus was and how it all comes from the old testament is important wether you study the bible from a bibical christinity or secular academic point of view.

    It can save a life time of pointless field service and boring assemblies.

  • Vanderhoven7

    How important is the Trinity?

    A condition for be a priest in the Orthodox church was to speak for 5 minutes on the Holy Trinity without vocalizing more than 17 heresies. ;)

  • Finkelstein

    I think its important to research actually how Jesus Christ was created and came about in historical theology..

    Richard Carrier has a analytical explanation in how.

  • Perry

    The What is ONE, the Who is Three. Once you understand this, things start to make a little more sense.

    For instance, it might not be accurate to say that Jehovah bled on Calvary Hill while he hung on a tree. But it would be accurate to say that God bled on Calvary Hill while he hung on a tree.

    The New World Translation changes a scripture in Acts 20:28 to obscure this.

    feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. - KJV

    shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood - NASB

    Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood - NIV

    shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son] - NWT

  • garyneal
    What do you think?

    I am pretty much in agreement in that there doesn't seem to be a real reason why Christians needed to make such distinctions. In regards to the way Jesus died, if the whole point was that He died and rose again to cover the sins of humanity then did it matter whether or not it was on the cross, a stake, or by stoning? The point is, He died and rose again.

    In regards to the Trinity, no one really understands that so I don't get why it is so important when even Christians who insist on it do not make it the primary focus of the salvation message. When I became a born again believer, I was simply told about man's sin, God's grace, and our acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice.

    Knowing what I know now, I know the Trinity teaching was a later Christian addition in order to explain how Jesus could be God while at the same time Yahweh can be God while maintaining monotheism.

  • Chris Parkinson
    Chris Parkinson
    Did Jesus die on a cross? Does it really matter? It doesn't change anything that I can see.

    While it's not a salvation issue, in an indirect way it can become one. This is an uncharitable view, however I do think one of the main reasons the Watchtower adopted the torture stake view was to cast Christendom in a dishonest light. It emulates the old sales line of "You can't trust them but you can trust us!". If the church is lying about the cross, what else are they lying about? If the cross is pagan, what else is pagan? This is exactly what the WT want it's congregation to think.

    It's easier to convince people that something is true if you can place doubt and distrust in the mind of the individual. In the case of the watchtower, if their congregation are led to believe that Christendom is corrupt/pagan and so forth, then this forms a very powerful deception around the witness, who's access to the truth is largely cut off. It's why the bible says test all things (1 Thess 5:21). There's a very obvious reason why the WT have their own translation that is at odds with virtually all others.

    A good hermeneutic is paramount to interpreting scripture. It's not enough to look up the greek word Stauros and use that as the basis for saying He died on a torture stake. There is a clue in John 20:25, when Jesus appeared to Thomas and said "Look at my hands..", plus the sign was described as being above his head, not his hands. Lastly, it's always good to study history and read about the common forms of crucifixion imposed by the Romans.

    Is god a trinity? Again, who cares? Jesus still told us to pray to our heavenly father.

    Without discussing the Trinity, the most important theology is that of Christ. In John 8:24, he said that if you do not believe that I am he you will die in your sins. Very strong statement, but one that needed to be said, as He knows that how people view Him directly affects their relationship with Him and therefore the Father. He made it clear that to reject Him is to reject the Father. He also asked Peter "Who do you say I am?"

    Yes we do pray to our heavenly Father. We can also pray to Jesus ( John 14:14, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 1 John 5:14, Acts 7:59 ). I've read some of the JW articles and they forbid praying to Jesus, even though the Word of God disagrees with them. Who is our final authority? God or man?

  • scratchme1010

    Trinity...cross...Does it matter?


  • smiddy

    Under Rutherford JW`s just had to be different from mainstream Christendom eg: Torture stake not the cross ,anti-trinity, blood transfusions a no-no ,empathis on the name Jehovah and not Jesus ,door to door ministry for everyone, all are ministers of God even baptised children ,neutrality of politics and nationalities ,

    It seems like they were determined to go against everything mainstream Christendom stood for. just to set them apart as a new religion blessed by God.

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