Is There Anything That a JW Wouldn't Do If They Were Told To???

by minimus 25 Replies latest jw friends

  • Reborn2002
    Reborn2002

    Francois said:

    The guy didn't even hesitate to think about it. Immediately he said, "Absolutely I would do it. But I don't think that the Governing Body would ever direct us to do that. But if they did, well..."

    Doesn't that jar your preserves?

    If that had been me, he would have never finished the beginning of the sentence because I would have punched him in the jaw so hard he would have been on the ground spitting blood and teeth out of his mouth.

    Examples like this remind me why I HATE Jehovah's Witnesses. They are a dangerous cult and experiences like this concern me. Why do you ask? This concerns me because one day (which potentially may come in my lifetime looking at the advancements in society both technologically, culturally, racially, ability to access information, skepticism of religion, etc. in the last 50 years versus the next 50 forthcoming) in their desperate death throes the Watchtower Society may lose a devastating lawsuit (blood doctrine and child molestation are weaknesses that have only begun to be truly exploited) or something which brings about it's end and they could potentially become a Jim Jones genocidal group at the end which kills an untold amout of people worldwide in some last hurrah.

    He would have been physically harmed in my presence. Agreeing to follow the instructions of some geriatric men in Brooklyn wearing Depends simply because they claim to be directed by God, and subsequently willfully killing other innocent people based solely on religion makes Dubs like that just as dangerous as Islamic fundamentalists who carried out the attacks of September 11th, 2001.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Some posters will object that I and others have said that JWs would kill, if so instructed by the Society. Here is an imaginary article that shows how it could be done:

    From the July 1, 2006 Watchtower article "Righteous Requirements":

    The kingdom of God is the highest government anyone can serve. To be acceptable all kingdom service must find its motive in love for Jehovah. All desiring to be pleasing to God must always keep this foremost in mind. A call to action is now going forth to Jehovah's people throughout the earth. It is a righteous call, and action is a righteous requirement. This is not a new call to action but a revival of one Jehovah's people obeyed in the days of Israel.

    Jehovah is our great God and Christ Jesus is his anointed King. In 1918 the King came to his temple class which is composed of the dedicated, spirit-begotten and anointed members of his body. He has judged them clean and commissioned them to act as his "faithful and discreet slave".--Matt. 25:45-47.

    The King has placed this slave over his earthly household and has given him charge over all his goods with specific instructions to bring forth "food in due season" for the household of faith. The servant was also anointed "to tell good news to the meek; ... to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive and the wide opening of the eyes even to the prisoners; to proclaim the year of good will on the part of Jehovah and the day of vengeance on the part of our God; to comfort all the mourning ones".--Isa. 61:1-3.

    The Scriptures and the facts clearly establish that the commission given to the "faithful slave" is grounded in the Word of Jehovah. There is only one organization on earth today fulfilling these righteous requirements--The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society under the direction of its Governing Body. Jehovah through the Governing Body is now proclaiming his day of vengeance.

    This Society was authorized by Jehovah to bring forth things new and old for the household of faith and do his work. Therefore it is fully qualified and duly authorized to issue a "call to action" to all who claim to be on Jehovah's side in these final days to busy themselves in doing the work of Jehovah.

    This "call to action" sent out by Jehovah through the Society is based on the fulfilled prophecies of his Word clearly revealed to those who have the mind of Jehovah, in such Watchtower articles as "What It Takes to Keep Separate from the World" in the June 15, 1980 issue, "Godly Conduct Toward Others" and "Disfellowshiping--How To View It" in the September 15, 1981 issue, "Christ Hated Lawlessness--Do You?" in the July 15, 1992 issue and "At Which Table Are You Feeding?" in the July 1, 1994 issue.

    These thrilling prophecies were called to our attention during the past year and clearly reveal Jehovah's requirements for those who are under the leadership of his King. These are, therefore, right and righteous requirements for every dedicated servant of Jehovah. As the above mentioned articles show, Jehovah prophesied that his servants would "hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah," and would feel "a loathing for those revolting against you."

    How does Jehovah issue the call to his people? Does it come in the form of a harsh ultimatum: You do thus and so, or else--? No! Such ultimatums are not necessary. Jehovah never adopts that attitude toward his servants. Instead, he foretold that his servants would offer themselves willingly. (Psalm 110:3). His anointed King prophesied "whoever wants to save his soul will lose it; but whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it."

    This call is therefore for those who love Jehovah and rejoice in his righteous requirements and who wish to live in and accept the responsibilities of his government. Such show their faith and faithfulness by their response to the call to action. When this class sees the issue and hears the call, that is all that is necessary. Jesus says of them, `For they know the good shepherd's voice, and a stranger will they not follow.' (John 10:4,5) Jehovah always issues his call to action in an organized, systematic manner. This is emphasized throughout the Bible, from the opening chapters of Genesis to the concluding chapters of Revelation. Let us consider two by way of illustration.

    In Genesis 1:26 Jehovah issued a "call to action" to his Son, the Logos, and such other agencies as were required for the creation of man, in these words: "And God went on to say: `Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.'" This is all there was to it. Jehovah expressed his will. That expressed will became "organization instructions" to the Logos. It was at that time that "the morning stars joyfully cried out together, and all the sons of God began shouting in applause". (Job 38:7) Another splendid illustration of Jehovah's expressing his will, which expressed will became "organization instructions" to Jesus and all other servants of Jehovah participating in the great drama, is the 110th Psalm, particularly the first three verses: "The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: `Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet. The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, saying: "Go subduing in the midst of your enemies." Your people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force. In the splendors of holiness, from the womb of the dawn, you have your company of young men just like dewdrops.'"

    Every organization requires specific instructions for those who serve in it. In the past Jehovah issued his "organization instructions" to his servants through his central agency or channel. Each one joyfully accepted his part and faithfully carried it out.

    Now, the apostle says, Jehovah speaks to us through his Son. (Heb. 1:1, 2) The Son has returned as King; he has come to his temple. He has appointed his "faithful and discreet slave", who is his visible representative, and says to those who are privileged to represent him upon the earth, "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" (Matthew 24:14); and, "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies."

    These expressions of God's will by his King and through his established agency constitute his law or rule of action for the "faithful and discreet slave" and for their companions today. Jehovah breaks down our organization instructions further and makes them more practicable by further instructing us through his Word. He says, "In case your brother ... should try to allure you ... you must not accede to his wish or listen to him, nor should your eye feel sorry for him, nor must you feel compassion, nor cover him protectively; but you should kill him without fail. Your hand first of all should come upon him to put him to death, and the hand of all the people afterward. And you must stone him with stones, and he must die, because he has sought to turn you away from Jehovah your God... Then all Israel will hear and become afraid, and they will not do anything like this bad thing again in your midst."

    Apostates are lawless ones and these always try to allure Jehovah's faithful ones to serve "other gods." Our obligation to hate lawlessness applies to all activity by apostates. Our attitude toward apostates should be that of David, who declared: "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies."

    These directions come to us from Jehovah through his established agency directing what is required of us; and, for those who really love Jehovah and are guided by his counsel, that is a reasonable requirement. It is for our good that these requirements are made; for thereby we are enabled to prove our integrity and magnify Jehovah's name.

    The time has come when each one must bear his own burden fully before Jehovah. With the provisions that he has now made in supplying us with spiritual counsel and instructions as to our obligation towards apostates, there is absolutely no excuse for anyone, man or woman, to claim to be unable to accept this assignment and assume full responsibility for it. Those who really love Jehovah and are fighters for the New Order will not try to excuse themselves on any ground, but will hear Jehovah's word when he says, Let us do thus and so, and always keep in mind the us includes Christ, who will be with us in every undertaking.--Matthew 18:20.

    Jehovah through his "faithful and discreet slave" now states to us, "Let us seek out apostates in our territory and deal scripturally with them." That becomes our organization instructions and has the same binding force on us that his statement to the Logos had when he said, "Let us make man in our image." It is our duty to accept this additional instruction and obey it. But someone will say, "The conditions are different. In the case of the Logos, he could accomplish what Jehovah commanded him to do; but when it comes to seeking out apostates, that is out of all reason. We have never sought out apostates before, and besides, Jehovah never authorized us to kill other humans. It just can't be done." We have all heard that argument before. And if it were true it would look bad indeed, and would imply that Jehovah was asking us to do something that is impossible for us to accomplish. The children of Israel walked around Jericho seven times the last day. Phinehas was empowered to clear out what was bad from Israel's midst (Numbers 25:6-8). As loyal servants of Jehovah, so will his holy spirit empower us today!

  • Reborn2002
    Reborn2002

    Excellent posts AlanF.

    I concur completely.

    Jehovah's Witnesses need only be instructed in their literature and told that it is "New Light" provided by the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" and those loyal to the religion would happily oblige.

    You provided an imaginary future article (very convincing I might add) which demonstrates this. Let us not forget older, actual articles written by the Watchtower Society which express deep regret that they are not able at the present time to kill unbelievers.

    *** Nov 15, 1952 Watchtower ***

    Questions from Readers

    · In the case of where a father or mother or son or daughter is disfellowshiped, how should such person be treated by members of the family in their family relationship?-P. C., Ontario, Canada.

    We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. "Thou shalt surely kill him; thy hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him to death with stones, because he hath sought to draw thee away from Jehovah thy God, . . . And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is in the midst of thee."-Deut. 13:6-11, AS.

    Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws . The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship . However, God's law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshiped from his congregation, and this despite the fact that the law of the land in which we live requires us under some natural obligation to live with and have dealings with such apostates under the same roof.

    God's law does not allow a marriage partner to dismiss his mate because his mate becomes disfellowshiped or apostatizes. Neither will the law of the land in most cases allow a divorce to be granted on such grounds. The faithful believer and the apostate or disfellowshiped mate must legally continue to live together and render proper marriage dues one to the other. A father may not legally dismiss his minor child from his household because of apostasy or disfellowshiping, and a minor child or children may not abandon their father or their mother just because he becomes unfaithful to God and his theocratic organization. The parent must by laws of God and of man fulfill his parental obligations to the child or children as long as they are dependent minors, and the child or children must render filial submission to the parent as long as legally underage or as long as being without parental consent to depart from the home. Of course, if the children are of age, then there can be a departing and breaking of family ties in a physical way, because the spiritual ties have already snapped .

    If children are of age and continue to associate with a disfellowshiped parent because of receiving material support from him or her, then they must consider how far their spiritual interests are being endangered by continuing under this unequal arrangement, and whether they can arrange to support themselves, living apart from the fallen-away parent. Their continuing to receive material support should not make them compromise so as to ignore the disfellowshiped state of the parent. If, because of acting according to the disfellowship order of the company of God's people, they become threatened with a withdrawal of the parental support, then they must be willing to take such consequences .

    Satan's influence through the disfellowshiped member of the family will be to cause the other member or members of the family who are in the truth to join the disfellowshiped member in his course or in his position toward God's organization. To do this would be disastrous, and so the faithful family member must recognize and conform to the disfellowship order . How would or could this be done while living under the same roof or in personal, physical contact daily with the disfellowshiped? In this way: By refusing to have religious relationship with the disfellowshiped.

    The marriage partner would render the marriage dues according to the law of the land and in due payment for all material benefits bestowed and accepted. But to have religious communion with the disfellowshiped person-no, there would be none of that! The faithful marriage partner would not discuss religion with the apostate or disfellowshiped and would not accompany that one to his (or her) place of religious association and participate in the meetings with that one. As Jesus said: "If he does not listen even to the congregation [which was obliged to disfellowship him], let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector [to Jehovah's sanctified nation]." (Matt. 18:17, NW) Hurt to such one would not be authorized , but there would be no spiritual or religious fellowshiping.

    The same rule would apply to those who are in the relation of parent and child or of child and parent. What natural obligation falls upon them according to man's law and God's law the faithful parent or the faithful child will comply with. But as for rendering more than that and having religious fellowship with such one in violation of the congregation's disfellowship order-no, none of that for the faithful one! If the faithful suffers in some material or other way for the faithful adherence to theocratic law, then he must accept this as suffering for righteousness' sake .

    The purpose of observing the disfellowship order is to make the disfellowshiped one realize the error of his way and to shame him, if possible , so that he may be recovered, and also to safeguard your own salvation to life in the new world in vindication of God. (2 Thess. 3:14, 15; Titus 2:8) Because of being in close, indissoluble natural family ties and being of the same household under the one roof you may have to eat material food and live physically with that one at home, in which case 1 Corinthians 5:9-11 and 2 John 10 could not apply; but do not defeat the purpose of the congregation's disfellowship order by eating spiritual or religious food with such one or receiving such one favorably in a religious way and bidding him farewell with a wish for his prosperity in his apostate course.

    [Emphasis Added]

  • rocketman
    rocketman

    Alan F., wow, they could put you in the writing department right now. In style and content, that read very much like a WT article of KM article might well read.

    Reborn, it's interesting that you posted that '52 article, because it shows that the sentiment in there. Though jws might argue that the article in 51 years old and that sentiment no longer exists or at least has been modified, one could simply point out how they apply the scriptures used to order the death of 'apostates' in the Hebrew Scriptures.

    As Alan shows, all it takes is stringing a few of those scriptures together, coupled with the 'submissive' attitude of jws toward the 'faithful slave', and you have a possible recipe for some really weird stuff.

  • rocketman
    rocketman

    JH you mentioned a 6th meeting. I remember one CO saying that we do 'whatever Jehovah's Organization says. If they tell us to attend 10 meetings each week, then we'll attend 10 meetings each week'.

    My guess is with an added meeting, most jws would start missing meetings more frequently. They would not verbalize it, but they'd disagree in their own minds. In fact, I belive many jws do this already with the 5 meetings each week. Many in effect set their own schedule and miss meetings routinely.

  • teenyuck
    teenyuck

    Alan and Reborn--Excellent posts!

    Alan, you could be in the writing department. That is creepy!

    Reborn, when you highlighted the words and read those only, the whole context changes.

    I agree that if they were led this way (Alan's article) they would do it. Many of them would. If more articles came out like that, especially letting them think they were being persecuted for being prosecuted, they would really have lots of people killing.

    The scary part is that people from Brooklyn probably read this board and perhaps posters like Alan especially. They might plagerize his writing!

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    This question could be read right along with the NO Blood one eh?

    I asked my mother that question once, and her answer was "no". So I asked her if they told her to kill me, would she do it. She was shocked and said "of course not but they would never ask that of me". It made her think though. (what if they did?)

    So........ hypothetically.... what if mulan was 9, hit by a car and bleeding all over the emergency room floor? , what would her mother do? Thou shalt not kill does not apply? No, I don't think there is anything that the GB couldn't make a JW do. sad to not see will

  • Reborn2002
    Reborn2002
    Reborn, it's interesting that you posted that '52 article, because it shows that the sentiment in there. Though jws might argue that the article in 51 years old and that sentiment no longer exists or at least has been modified, one could simply point out how they apply the scriptures used to order the death of 'apostates' in the Hebrew Scriptures.

    Yes indeed, the sentiment is there. To date the Jehovah's Witnesses have not repealed this practice under the premise of "New Light." Disfellowshipping and shunning are still a very important role for the loyal JW so as to demonstrate their "righteousness" and "loyalty" to the Watchtower Society. I should know, I have not spoken to members of my family in several years solely because I am not a Jehovah's Witness. Not because I am a bad person, but only because I do not believe their religion.

    Besides, if all literature provided by the Watchtower Society is divinely inspired as though it were given directly by God, then in an article such as the one I posted in the previous post, it demonstrates a regret over not being able to commit murder, even a bloodlust to wish to be able to do so.

    Let us look at a Watchtower that is much more recent, some 35 years later than the 1951 article. Please take note of the sentences I have highlighted, which only reinforce the reality that Jehovah's Witnesses will readily accept whatever new instructions they are given by those who write these magazines. It is at the very core of their doctrine.

    *** Watchtower Apr 1, 1986 p.30-31 ***

    Questions From Readers

    · Why have Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?

    Those who voice such an objection point out that many religious organizations claiming to be Christian allow dissident views. Even some clergymen disagree with basic teachings of their church, yet they remain in good standing. In nearly all the denominations of Christendom, there are modernists and fundamentalists who greatly disagree with one another as to the inspiration of the Scriptures.

    However, such examples provide no grounds for our doing the same. Why not? Many of such denominations allow widely divergent views among the clergy and the laity because they feel they cannot be certain as to just what is Bible truth. They are like the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day who were unable to speak as persons having authority, which is how Jesus taught. (Matthew 7:29) Moreover, to the extent that religionists believe in interfaith, they are obligated not to take divergent beliefs too seriously.

    But taking such a view of matters has no basis in the Scriptures. Jesus did not make common cause with any of the sects of Judaism. Jews of those sects professed to believe in the God of creation and in the Hebrew Scriptures, particularly the Law of Moses. Still, Jesus told his disciples to "watch out . . . for the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (Matthew 16:11, 12; 23:15) Note also how strongly the apostle Paul stated matters: "Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed." Paul then repeated that statement for emphasis.-Galatians 1:8, 9.

    Teaching dissident or divergent views is not compatible with true Christianity, as Paul makes clear at 1 Corinthians 1:10: "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought." (New International Version) At Ephesians 4:3-6 he further stated that Christians should be "earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all persons."

    Was this unity to be achieved and maintained by each one's independently searching the Scriptures, coming to his own conclusions, and then teaching these? Not at all! Through Jesus Christ, Jehovah God provided for this purpose "some as apostles, . . . some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers . . . until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man." Yes, with the help of such ministers, congregational unity-oneness in teaching and activity-could be and would be possible.-Ephesians 4:11-13.

    Obviously, a basis for approved fellowship with Jehovah's Witnesses cannot rest merely on a belief in God, in the Bible, in Jesus Christ, and so forth. The Roman Catholic pope, as well as the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury, professes such beliefs, yet their church memberships are exclusive of each other. Likewise, simply professing to have such beliefs would not authorize one to be known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Approved association with Jehovah's Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?

    That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah's sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a "faithful and discreet slave" upon earth today 'entrusted with all of Jesus' earthly interests,' which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ's foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15-12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ's Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present "great crowd" of Jesus' "other sheep."-John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4.

    Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: "Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus' sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.

    Similarly, the apostle John termed as antichrists those who did not believe that Jesus had come in the flesh. They may well have believed in God, in the Hebrew Scriptures, in Jesus as God's Son, and so on. But on this point, that Jesus had actually come in the flesh, they disagreed and thus were termed "antichrist." John goes on to say regarding those holding such variant views: "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."-2 John 7, 10, 11.

    Following such Scriptural patterns, if a Christian (who claims belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus) unrepentantly promotes false teachings, it may be necessary for him to be expelled from the congregation. (See Titus 3:10, 11.) Of course, if a person just has doubts or is uninformed on a point, qualified ministers will lovingly assist him. This accords with the counsel: "Continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save them by snatching them out of the fire." (Jude 22, 23) Hence, the true Christian congregation cannot rightly be accused of being harshly dogmatic, but it does highly value and work toward the unity encouraged in God's Word.

    You only need substitute the terms shunning exJW's and so-called "apostates" with a righteous extermination of unbelievers to see just how plausible the scenario is for Jehovah's Witnesses to transform into a death cult hellbent on murdering people because they chose not to adhere to their religion.

    To be a Jehovah's Witness, you must accept the entire range of WT teachings, including those unique to them. If they ordered members to kill... many (out of 6+ million) would do so.

  • Sunspot
    Sunspot

    "You only need substitute the terms shunning exJW's and so-called "apostates" with a righteous extermination of unbelievers to see just how plausible the scenario is for Jehovah's Witnesses to transform into a death cult hellbent on murdering people because they chose not to adhere to their religion.

    To be a Jehovah's Witness, you must accept the entire range of WT teachings, including those unique to them. If they ordered members to kill... many (out of 6+ million) would do so."

    As far-fetched and irrational as this (scenario) sounds, I totally agree that if the WTS said that the "Warrior-King" had sounded the alarm........that this could very well happen.

    Interesting thoughts, here.........

    Annie

  • minimus
    minimus

    So besides kill in the name of God, what else???.........Great comments Reborn and Alan!

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