Origin of Life

by cofty 405 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Even then the majority of anti-theists and evolutionists will reject His authority (cf. Rev. 11:18).

    It always strikes me as bonkers that people that believe in invisible magic zombie sky fairies feel qualified to say with absolute confidence what other people think.

    OTOH, they believe in invisible magic zombie sky fairies, so why would anyone be surprised at another bonkers thing they believe in?

    I will just say: See you need an intelligent mind to create life.

    Logically, then, your invisible magic zombie sky fairy cannot exist without a creator.


  • Sanchy
    Sanchy

    In recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.

    How do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

    Cofty, I usually find your posts very instructive and I must say they've been partly instrumental in my being motivated to learn and accept what science has to say about creation and specifically evolution. But honestly, this post adds no benefit to the discussion and comes off as a prideful grasping at straws, with much projecting and worthless argumentation.

    I think you should stick to the facts, they are on your side my friend.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Cofty, If it is easy to cobble these processes together, even with simplified, rudimentary precursors, we should be seeing results quite soon, but perhaps not. My worldview is open to change. I constantly work at it, taking in consideration a variety of inputs, e.g., archaeology, development of language, etc. But to go into it right now, would derail your thread on the origin of life, so rather not.

    One example that might fit, is a possible new definition of death. Doctors have developed a technique of "suspending" a badly injured person in low temperatures for three hours or more. They remove his blood and replace it with Ringer solution. This allows them time to fix for example an injury to his heart without him bleeding out. Gradually he is heated and the Ringer solution replaced with his blood. The person recovers fully without negative effects. In the olden days you were viewed as being dead when your heart stopped beating and your brain stopped functioning. So the processes, sustaining your life, could be "suspended" and then reactivated.

  • StarTrekAngel
    StarTrekAngel

    Modern religion (or modern theism in general) is not based in logic. Science is. Therefore the two will never find a way to prove each other right or wrong. It is just impossible. Unfortunately it doesn't end there. For many of us here would conclude that having logical thinking is they way to go (and I agree) but we can not expect to ever reach a point where this disagreement will ever be settled. Personally I feel this is where religion looses its ground. Not on the fact that religion may always have another reason to believe, despite the mounting scientific evidence to the contrary, but rather on how religion has been redefined since the last scriptures were written down. The characters of the bible where always basing their belief in evidence. Miracles, unlikely military victories, etc. Although I don't believe that the two will ever be 100% compatible or agreeable, the religion of that time may have had a lot more in common with the scientific method of today.


    In case you have not seen this movie (Nacho Libre), this isn't just a meme, it is a real line from the movie.

    With that said, we always run the risk of simply falling under the religious mentality. That is that you know better because you have your Almighty God in your side, whom knows everything and is capable of anything. Religion defined as worshipping of a deity is the default understanding of it. The reality is that we can make a religion out of anything. If the WT every said anything correctly is that patriotism for example, can be a form of religion. No, I do not advocate for not saluting your flag or any of that. But in the fervor of national pride we loose sight of the real purpose of why we classify ourselves under a book of laws, national name or flag or anthem. This is to care for one another and provide a level of equality and governance. We eventually turn patriotic fervor to the point where it becomes just as unreasonable as modern religion. We make the constitution our bible and we attach ourselves to it and listen to no reasoning and all our very own selfish purposes. One has to simply look at the battle over the second amendment in the US to see a clear example. Regardless on which side of this debate you seat, it is not difficult to see that some are too quick to resort to the constitution as an irrevocable basis for their stand. Any non believer would probably agree that even if the bible has some good advice, it was written thousands of years ago and therefore outdated to modern life. Yet, a book that was written a bit over 200 years ago, in an age where no one could have imagined what a modern weapon could do, seems to hold up to modern times and therefore worthy of outmost consideration.

    The key in all of this, in my view, is wether we are making our life outlook or belief into a religion worth fighting for and worth proven ourselves right rather than imagining how our life outlook can help our fellow man without causing any further harm. Science has a leg up on this for sure and by far. At least in modern times.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Hi Viv, where have you been hiding? Good to hear from you. The wannabee microbiologist is again at your service.

    Interesting for a guy on psychedelic mushrooms to know man will reach a point in future where he is able to destroy his earthly home. It’s called prophecy, don’t you know? The little swallow knows not to defecate in his nest, a lesson man has not learnt as yet, especially now in the nuclear age.

    However, if vermin and insects invade your home and are in the process of destroying it, you get in pest control to get rid of them. Remember “Apocalypse Now!” and the general standing on the beach, saying: “I love the smell of napalm in the morning.” I, again, find solace in the words, “and to destroy those who are destroying the earth” (Rev. 11:18 NJB).

  • prologos
    prologos

    what gives me pause is, that with all the juicy organic material around, we have not seen spontaneous, or artificial restarting of the original spark that fired up life. If that potential was build into the original energy, matter, law mix? why is it so rare then?

  • A Ha
    A Ha
    what gives me pause is, that with all the juicy organic material around, we have not seen spontaneous, or artificial restarting of the original spark that fired up life.

    For one thing, our earth is filled--in every niche, every nook and cranny, from deep sea vents at crushing pressures and temperatures, to arctic permafrost, to hot springs, and everywhere in between--by bacteria that see juicy organic material as food. And if some of those juicy organic materials could avoid being consumed by bacteria, earth is an oxygenated planet, and oxygen reacts with organic compounds and they degrade.

  • cofty
    cofty
    this post adds no benefit to the discussion and comes off as a prideful grasping at straws, with much projecting and worthless argumentation. - Sanchy

    Why would you think that my statement of fact that - In recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet - is "grasping at straws"?

    Is it because you are not aware of recent developments in origin-of-life science? I have very little doubt that the solution - or at least a solution - is not too far beyond our grasp. The specific details have already been laid out in detail. Now the hard work is going on in labs around the world to see if each of the steps can be shown to work.

    If you are interested I would be happy to explain some of the details.

    Please don't be distracted by stories of "primordial soup". That is a dead end.

    I think you should stick to the facts, they are on your side my friend. - Sanchy

    I am really not straying beyond facts for a moment.

    If it is easy to cobble these processes together, even with simplified, rudimentary precursors, we should be seeing results quite soon - Vidqun

    It is really really NOT easy. Some of the best biochemists in the world are working on it though and making progress.

    I'm genuinely interested in how it would affect your worldview if/when it does happen. It is assumed by theists that "life" is a special thing that emanates from god alone - "with him is the source of life". If science can show that life begins spontaneously under the correct chemical conditions then surely that would have profound theological implications.

    The majority of christians have accepted the fact of evolution and found a way to accommodate it within their theology. I wonder if it would be so easy to adapt the the knowledge that life is a purely naturalistic process.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Just to echo A Ha's comment about oxygen. Life originated on an anaerobic earth.

    Oxygen was a toxic byproduct of the respiration of cyanobacteria that are the ancestors of the chloroplasts that perform photosynthesis in green plants.

    Aerobic bacteria learned how to use this oxygen as an electron acceptor. Some of these are the ancestors of our mitochondria. In the end oxygen is the death of all of us.

  • little_Socrates
    little_Socrates

    Understanding the physical processes that operate and shape our universe will not the eliminate the need for meaning and purpose and will never answer the question of "Why".

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