Kingdom Hall being sold to church

by tinman72 38 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Pistoff

    stephanus wrote:

    It seems to me that the Tower prefers placid employees to risk-taking entreprenuers in their org

    Exactly. I own a business, have dub employees; got much flak from a few church jobs. One witness said: If you give me a choice, I won't process the paperwork. If you say I have to, then I will.

    Think about that for a moment: how wrong is it when just being told by a boss to do it makes it ok? This article is such a piece of crap. When I read it in 99 it made me furious. It does NOT answer one thing, but the "faithful" dubs read in it that it is WRONG. When I read it, all I see is line after line of confusing questions that only blur the issue. Here is your issue, WT: Right, or wrong, to perform contract labor for a church? It's not that tough. But, as per usual with the corporate pack in charge, they waffle, and bluster, and so confuse the issue that no matter what you think, you can find something to support it in this article.

    That article is one that helped push me over the edge into just doing what I thought was right. It was obvious to me from that article that not only would they not answer a question with a straight answer, they wouldn't admit as much either.

    I really think it is a corporate thing; write a lot, don't say anything. That way, you cannot be held accountable in a court of law for consequences.

  • gentleheart

    two separate KH's in my area are now churches.... and i can remember all the static as a child because someone THOUGHT my dad (in construction) was bidding on renovations to a church....

  • UnDisfellowshipped

    This is a very interesting subject. Below I am posting some info about this:

    Mainly, the information below is a bunch of questions I have put together for asking Jehovah's Witnesses about this subject.

    * Is it okay to sell Kingdom Halls to other Churches of Babylon the Great, since the Jehovah's Witnesses would be providing a False Religion with a Building where they can practice their False Religion? If this is okay, what are the Scriptural reasons for this being okay?

    * Is it okay to buy Church Buildings from other Churches of Babylon the Great, since the Jehovah's Witnesses would be providing a False Religion with tens of thousands of dollars which they can use to promote their False Religion? If this is okay, what are the Scriptural reasons for this being okay?

    * Are individual Jehovah's Witnesses allowed to donate to, or purchase items directly from, or sell items directly to, the Red Cross, the Boy Scouts, YMCA, the Salvation Army, or the Catholic Church?

    * Is it okay to sell Kingdom Halls to or buy Buildings from the following Organizations or People:

    Abortion Clinics
    Military Bases
    Weapons Manufacturing Company
    Blood Banks
    Prostitution Houses
    Drug Dealers' Houses

    * If it is not okay to sell or buy buildings from those Organizations, why is it okay to do it with Babylon the Great? What is the difference?

    * Are individual Jehovah's Witnesses allowed to do construction work, janitorial work, or yard work for a Church that is part of Babylon the Great? How is that any different from selling a Kingdom Hall to Babylon the Great?

    I am trying to make a point, because this is a serious question I have had for quite a while. You see, I have heard absolutely NO Scriptural support given for why it is perfectly okay for the Watchtower Society to help and support Babylon the Great by buying and selling Buildings with Babylon, BUT it is against Jehovah God's Laws for individual Jehovah's Witnesses to sweep the floors inside a Church Building.

    I have heard at least one Jehovah's Witness claim that "realty laws" are the reason why the Watchtower Society has to sell their Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls to Babylonish Religions.

    Now, I'm not an expert on realty laws, but isn't the Kingdom Hall owned 100% by the Jehovah's Witnesses? Don't the Jehovah's Witnesses have 100% control over whether or not they sell the property to a certain person or organization?

    Does that mean, because of "realty laws" that Jehovah's Witnesses will sell their Kingdom Halls to Abortion Clinics, and provide them with a Building where they can Murder Babies?

    Does that mean, because of "realty laws" that Jehovah's Witnesses will sell their Kingdom Halls to Blood Banks, and provide them with a Building where they can give Blood Transfusions?

    Does that mean, because of "realty laws" that Jehovah's Witnesses will sell their Kingdom Halls to Bomb-Making Factories, and provide them with a Building where they can make Bombs to be used in War?

    So, in Malawi, the Watchtower Society encouraged the JW's to BREAK THE LAW by NOT purchasing 25-Cent Political Party Cards in a country where there was only ONE Political Party, but now, the Watchtower Society helps to support Babylonish Religions because of some supposed "realty laws"?

    I have some other questions for Jehovah's Witnesses below:

    I know for a fact that the Watchtower Society and/or JW Elders have absolute control over whether or not they decide to BUY Buildings from Babylon the Great.

    Can any Jehovah's Witness give me one possible Scriptural answer for why the JW's can BUY Buildings from Babylon the Great -- and in the process GIVE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to Babylon the Great, which is used by Babylon to PROMOTE FALSE RELIGION -- and yet individual Jehovah's Witnesses are bloodguilty before Jehovah if they clean a Church Building's toilet?

    Why does the Watchtower Society even need to BUY Buildings from Babylon? Why don't they just build their own Kingdom Halls or buy some other Buildings?

    Does the Watchtower Society BUY Buildings from Abortion Clinics, and provide Abortion Clinics with THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS?

    Does the Watchtower Society BUY Buildings from Blood Banks, and provide Blood Banks with THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS?

    Does the Watchtower Society BUY Buildings from Bomb Factories, and provide Bomb Factories with THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS?

    If the Watchtower Society does not BUY Buildings from those places, why do they buy buildings from Babylon?

    Or, if the Watchtower Society DOES buy buildings from those places, please show the Scriptural reasons why they do so.

    Below I am going to explain why I think this is a big deal:

    When I was being raised in the JW's, my JW parents, as well as other JW's, told me that JW's are not supposed to purchase ANYTHING from the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Red Cross, or Salvation Army, BECAUSE the money would be going to support a false religious organization.

    JW's told me that we shouldn't even purchase Girl Scout Cookies because we might be "supporting" their organization with our money!

    So, I think everyone can understand my shock when I see the Watchtower Society purchasing buildings worth hundreds of thousands of dollars from Babylon the Great.

    Also, here are some Watchtower Quotes I am going to comment on:

    1997 Yearbook, Pages 244-245:

    Giving Evidence of Their Faith

    Two more missionaries from Hawaii, Placido and Marsha Ballesteros, arrived in 1970. Progress was slow. “There were many times when just the four of us missionaries attended the meetings, held in our living room,” Placido recalled.

    Eventually growth did come as local brothers made spiritual progress. One of them, John Ralad, faced a difficult situation. When John began to study the Bible, his construction company was in the process of building a church. Despite pressure from all sides, John determined that his conscience would not allow him to complete the church. He serves the congregation as an elder today.

    Yow Nifmed also had a serious choice to make. When first contacted by the Witnesses in 1970, he had two wives. In order to conform to Jehovah’s requirements, he had to rearrange his entire life. Today Brother Nifmed and his one wife are both happily serving Jehovah. He is an elder. When he goes to the meetings, he drives his pickup truck, loaded with 15 relatives.

    Notice, that Yearbook Quote above makes it appear that doing construction work on a Church Building is as serious a matter to worry about as having two wives.

    I highly, highly doubt that Brother John Ralad made that decision to quit working on the Church Building only because of "his own conscience", afterall, that Quote says he received "pressure from all sides" (more than likely including the JW's).

    That Quote also says that Brother John Ralad stopping work on the Church Building was "Giving Evidence of His Faith", and makes it appear that stopping work on a Church is as important as only having one wife.

    The Watchtower, September 1st 1962 Issue, Page 537:

    Few know such things about the Salvation Army. Many view it as just another welfare agency that helps the needy and poor, and is often on hand to render aid at scenes of disaster. Some are familiar with the assistance and encouragement it gave the Allied soldiers during World War I, following them right into battle and serving coffee and doughnuts on the front lines. More are acquainted with its work during the second world war, when the Salvation Army had one thousand mobile canteens placed strategically throughout the world—two of which were evacuated at Dunkirk. It is with such welfare work and war-assistance programs in mind that thousands of persons respond to the Army’s solicitation for funds to carry on their activity. But really, what type of organization do these contributions support?______________________________________

    The Watchtower Society makes it very clear that donating or giving money to the Salvation Army is wrong, because they have connections to Babylon the Great and Military Organizations.

    Would that not mean that purchasing things from the Salvation Army would be wrong also, because your money is going to support their Organization? The JW's I know definitely told me that it was.

    Also, if you read Revelation Chapter 18, it sounds to me like the merchants who buy and sell with Babylon are also condemned by God. Am I correct on this?

    Also, the following two Quotes make it sound like the merchants doing business with Babylon will be punished, but please correct me if I am wrong:

    The Watchtower, August 1st 1952 Issue, Pages 473-474:

    It is determined that plague upon plague will come upon the great mystical city of Babylon. Do not overlook what happened to Egypt in the days of Moses, and now a Greater-than-Moses is here. “Get out of her” is the command. Those of Jehovah’s witnesses who have escaped now look upon her and see in that great city what Jehovah God knows is there. What is it they see? Why, a dwelling place of demons, a lurking place of every unclean and hateful bird, passion-arousing wine to offer to rulers so that spiritual fornication may be committed, merchants of the earth using her for commercial gain and this by the power of her shameless luxury. For further disclosure see Revelation 18.

    21. To those who are mixing in with filthy Babylon and living on the plains of Babylon the word of Jehovah is to you to forsake her before you receive of her plagues and go down with her. Neither can you have one foot in God’s organization and the other in mystic Babylon. “What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?” “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing.’” (2 Cor. 6:15-17, NW) Leave entirely the sordid things of this evil world and come into God’s organization and take in the pure, clear, unpolluted spiritual air there.

    Revelation - Its Grand Climax At Hand! Book (1988), Page 264:

    21. Did Jesus have a tie-in with questionable business practices of his day? No. He was not even a property owner, for he had “nowhere to lay down his head.” A rich young ruler was advised by Jesus: “Sell all the things you have and distribute to poor people, and you will have treasure in the heavens; and come be my follower.” That was fine admonition, for it could have resulted in his getting rid of all anxieties over business matters. (Luke 9:58; 18:22) In contrast, Babylonish religion often has unsavory links with big business. For example, in 1987 the Albany Times Union reported that the financial administrator of the Catholic archdiocese of Miami, Florida, U.S.A., admitted to the church’s owning stocks in companies that make nuclear weapons, R-rated movies, and cigarettes.

    2002 Yearbook, Page 62:

    But Clarence had changes to make... at Christmastime, he would volunteer to ring the bell at a donation kettle for the Salvation Army. It took some time for him to realize what it means to be no part of Satan’s world. Eventually, though, he qualified to share in the ministry.

    Notice that Quote -- it says that getting donations for the Salvation Army means that you are part of Satan's world, and that you could not qualify to share in the Ministry.

    Brother Clarence probably collected at the most, not more than a few hundred dollars for the Salvation Army -- and yet he would be considered part of Babylon the Great and Satan's world -- but giving $100,000 to the Salvation Army to purchase one of their buildings to be used as a Kingdom Hall would not be considered part of Satan's world??

    I ask all Jehovah's Witnesses to really think about these questions I have brought up, and I would love for any JW to explain the reasonings behind these contradictions.

    The Watchtower, July 15th 1982 Issue, Page 26:

    Even a janitor or a receptionist at a blood bank or a plant making only weapons of war is directly linked with work contrary to God’s Word.—Leviticus 17:13, 14; Isaiah 2:2-4.____________________________________

    The Watchtower, April 15th 1999 Issue, Page 29:

    Would doing this work make one an accomplice in a condemned practice? Clearly, a person employed in a gambling den, an abortion clinic, or a house of prostitution would be an accomplice in an unscriptural practice. Even if his daily work there was merely sweeping floors or answering the telephone, he would be contributing to a practice that God’s Word condemns._______________________________________

    Now, those two Quotes directly above are really, really contradictory when compared to what the Watchtower Society says about buying and selling Kingdom Halls.

    You would be an "accomplice" of Babylon and bloodguilty before Jehovah if you sweep the floors or clean the toilets of one of Babylon the Great's buildings --- BUT you are definitely NOT an "accomplice" or bloodguilty if you give $100,000 to that same Organization to purchase the building --- and you are definitely NOT bloodguilty if you provide the building for Babylon to use!

    Would any Jehovah's Witness like to explain these contradictions?

    Can any Jehovah's Witness explain why Jehovah would find me bloodguilty for sweeping the floors of a Church Building, but not for giving the Building to the Church?

    Here is another Watchtower Quote I found -- notice especially the parts I have highlighted in red:

    The Watchtower, November 15th 1964 Issue, Page 703:

    Questions from Readers

    • Is it proper for a dedicated Christian witness of Jehovah to work in the employ of one of the religious organizations of Christendom or any other part of Babylon the Great?

    In determining the answer to this, it is good to keep in mind the clear-cut command that Jehovah issues to his people concerning the entire world empire of false religion. That religious empire is called Babylon the Great because it is far greater in scope than ancient Babylon but it bears all the earmarks of that ancient seat of worship in opposition to Jehovah. Concerning it, Revelation 18:4, 5 urges: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.”

    Now, how could a dedicated Christian witness of Jehovah conscientiously work for an organization, the whole operation of which is in opposition to Jehovah God? Jehovah God says that, from his standpoint, these false religious systems have a record of sin that has massed together clear up to heaven. They have lied about God, turned the people away from his loving provisions for life and, instead, blessed the nations in their slaughter of the inhabitants of the earth. Who wants the work of his hands to contribute to the operation of such a God-dishonoring empire?

    If a person who professes to be a dedicated Christian witness of Jehovah were to accept a job in the direct employ of such a religious organization, he would, in actuality, become a part of that organization. If the one who did that knew what such a thing meant and did it anyway, what could we conclude but that he was an apostate and should be disfellowshiped from the Christian congregation? However, it might occur that one works for a worldly commercial employer, and that employer may regularly handle work on church properties. Now, it is true that one doing such work is actually in the employ of a commercial firm, but in accepting work of that type as a regular thing he shows that he is not a mature Christian, and so, while he might be permitted to report as a publisher of the Kingdom, he could not be a servant who is looked to by the rest of the congregation as an example to imitate. If the commercial firm only occasionally handles a job for a church, which is true in many lines of work, one would not be disqualified as a servant in the congregation for accepting such employment, unless it became a cause of stumbling to others in the congregation. Even here, however, he may be able to arrange with his employer to assign him to other jobs, or he may, for reasons of conscience, prefer to look for employment that has no business contacts at all with false religious organizations.—1 Pet. 3:16.

    Certainly, though, no Christian witness of Jehovah, knowing what the Bible says about the record of Babylon the Great, would himself personally contract for work, either as a regular thing or as an incidental job, with a false religious organization. And if there is anyone who has done so, without realizing the seriousness of the situation, to maintain a clean conscience before God and a right standing with his organization, he should correct the situation just as soon as possible.—2 Cor. 6:16, 17.

    Though it is true that at times it is difficult to find employment in this old system of things, and one may feel pressed from an economic standpoint, if we are faithful to Jehovah God we can be assured that he will continue to answer our prayers and bless our efforts to obtain “our bread for the day according to the day’s requirement.”—Luke 11:3; Matt. 6:25-34; Ps. 37:25.

    Also, notice the following Quote which you will definitely want to read:

    1975 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses, Pages 99-100:

    "In September of 1917 I started to school and all went well until about March when all schoolchildren were required to buy a Red Cross pin. I took the note home at noon. Dad was at work and mom could only read German at that time. However, Brother Howlett, a pilgrim brother, was visiting the ‘class’ and he took care of the matter. No pin was bought!

    "It was shortly after this that the officials picked up dad at work and tried to make him stand on the book The Finished Mystery and salute the flag—this right on Main Street in Shattuck. He was taken to jail . . .

    "Shortly after this dad was picked up again and held another three days. This time he was fed very little. His release this time was another story. About midnight three men simulated a jail ‘break-in.’ They put a sack over dad’s head and marched him to the west edge of town barefooted. This was rough terrain and full of sandburs. Here they stripped him to the waist and whipped him with a buggy whip that had a wire at the tip. Then they applied hot tar and feathers, leaving him for dead. He managed to get up and walk and crawl around town toward the southeast. Then he intended to head north and home. However, a friend of his found him and brought him home. I never saw him that night, but it was a terrible shock to mom, especially with a tiny baby in the house, and Grandma Siebenlist fainted when she saw him. My brother John had been born only a few days before all of this happened. However, mom held up under all the strain very well, never losing sight of Jehovah’s protective power. . . .

    "Grandma and Aunt Katie, dad’s half sister, began nursing him back to life. The tar and feathers were imbedded in his flesh; so they used goose grease to heal up the wounds and gradually the tar came off. . . . Dad never saw their faces, but he recognized their voices and knew who his assailants were. He never told them. In fact, it was hard to get him ever to talk about it. Yet, he carried those scars to the grave."

  • peacefulpete

    I believe the latest is that it is ok to sell a product to "Babylon" but not a service. It is ok to sell a service to the "worldly" governments or corrupt "big buisiness" but not to "false religion". This arbitrary discrimination among what it calls the three elements of this world can only be understood as resulting from competative jealousy and rivalry with other churches.

  • Stephanus
    I believe the latest is that it is ok to sell a product to "Babylon" but not a service. It is ok to sell a service to the "worldly" governments or corrupt "big buisiness" but not to "false religion". This arbitrary discrimination among what it calls the three elements of this world can only be understood as resulting from competative jealousy and rivalry with other churches.

    Only Dubs and those close to them would know that the Dubs consider themselves (or at least their leaders) to be an alternative government. However, most people know them as an alternative religion. Therefore they are playing up to their image in the marketplace by not letting people think they are encouraging other religions in any way.

  • Lord Zagato
    Lord Zagato

    At least the building will be really put to good use now...

  • xjw_b12

    Good Thread tinman, and Welcome to the board .

    Blueblades said:

    Could the Levites sell the Tabernacle,or, the Temple to Babylon?

    Good point, and one that should be added to lthe list of questions disfellowshipped posted .

    xjw_b12 " Millions Now Living Will Never Die Know "

  • Pepper

    How stupid, they sell to a church and then they teach what the Dubs call false religion, then the Dubs go and call onn these poor smucks and get them to leave their church and be a J Dub. Stupid as bloody hell. Pepper

  • Mr. Kim
    Mr. Kim


Share this