Trinity Statements in the Dead Sea Scrolls

by Sea Breeze 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Duran
    Duran

    Just posting it again without explaining it shows you are not very good at defending your points-just sort of dense.

    So when Jesus is referred to as the “son of,” it’s not in reference to him being born from the father. It’s actually a claim of his deity.
    To be the Son of God is to be of the same nature as God.

    LOL! I did defend it, but you chose not to acknowledge the Scriptures shown.

    If God created Satan, is Satan God's son? Is God Satan's father?

    ________________________

    You know the answer to the above and yet the following uses 'father' about Satan in regard to people and even a 'LIE'. According to the context here, people are either identified as 'children' of Satan or of God. This would not make these 'people' to actually be God or Satan. People are identified with being either a 'son of Satan' or 'son of God' based on their own personal behavioral traits/nature and how it lines up with the behavioral traits/nature of God and Satan.

    5207 hyiós – properly, a son (by birth or adoption); (figuratively) anyone sharing the same nature as their Father.

    [They said to him: “We were not born from immorality; we have one Father, God.Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me. Who of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it that you do not believe me? The one who is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why you do not listen, because you are not from God.”]

    _______________

    To say, 'son of peace' is in keeping with saying 'son of God'.

    [And if a son of peace * is there, your peace will rest upon him. But if not, it will return to you.]

    * (Friend of peace/God, Someone of peace/God, Man of peace/God)

    [But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,]

    [For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”]

    [and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.]

    [You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.]

    [But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son, who was born of a woman and who was under law, that he might release by purchase those under law, so that we might receive the adoption as sons.]

    [Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”]

    [Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.]

    ________________

    To say, 'son of destruction' is in keeping with saying 'son of Satan'.

    [While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.]

    [Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,]

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    @SB

    I am in no way disputing that Trinitarian doctrine is very well thought out. Medieval scholasticism and especially Thomism - what I have had the opportunity to read of Thomas Aquinas - represents the pinnacle of reflection on Trinitarian dogma. But.

    To me, it is a theological construct. Same as 1914 and therefore, unnecessary.

    The anti-Trinitarianism of the JWs is historically adopted and in its least correct form - they do not worship Christ.

    Classical antitrinitarianism of the 16th and 17th centuries, which began in Italy, tried to rationally approximate the Bible and therefore worshipped Christ. So I'm just repeating that. Most of them, at that time, were deeply religious (although Catholics/Protestants often labeled them as atheists or agnostics) and sought to know everything that could be known rationally about God, also by reason. You can't discover by reason how Jesus walked on water or how he turned water into wine. But, it is possible to argue against 3 in 1...

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    Duran:

    To say, 'son of destruction' is in keeping with saying 'son of Satan'.
    How does Satan make a "son"?

    Destruction cannot make a son, so Satan cannot make a son.

    Therefore you have proven my argument with your own words, using "son of X" meaning characteristics of X.

    Satan cannot reproduce and make literal children.

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    I decided to change my previous post to this simpler one:

    It is not easy coming to terms with change after leaving the Watchtower. It is all people know.

    For some, it is all people will cling to even after they leave. Some will never stop quoting the NWT, some will only think of God as "Jehovah," and others will be afraid of living outside the limits of religious dogma altogether.

    The point is, whether any can or will change their views is not for any of us to decide or ridicule. There are academic standards, there are theologic and scientific ones, and there are people who will never leave the shadows of the Watchtower cult.

    But if you are in the shadows, know that you are still in the dark.

  • Duran
    Duran
    Satan cannot reproduce and make literal children.
    Therefore you have proven my argument with your own words, using "son of X" meaning characteristics of X.

    Noone has said that Satan makes literal children/sons. It is said of these people based on them having the characteristics of Satan that Satan is their father. That does not mean that he is literally their father nor that they are literally his children/sons. And most of all, saying that they have the characteristics of him, does not mean they are Satan himself, and likewise it does not mean that Jesus having the characteristics of Jehovah God, does not make him, Jehovah God himself.

    Destruction cannot make a son, so Satan cannot make a son.

    In saying, 'son of peace', 'peace' there represents God in that it is a fruit of his spirit. So, son/someone with the spirit/characteristic/nature of 'peace' would have the spirit/characteristic/nature of God, therefore called a 'son of God'.

    [But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,]

    [For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”]

    Likewise, just as "peace' is the spirit of God, 'destruction' represents the spirit of Satan. Those who manifest the spirit/characteristic/nature of Satan, it is said that Satan is their father, so their life by their choices/actions will lead them to destruction just like the end result is for Satan.

    [John 8:44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father.]

    ["Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.]

    [After Judas took the piece of bread, then Satan entered into him. So Jesus said to him: “What you are doing, do it more quickly.”] [While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.]

    [Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.] [But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing,]


    It is not easy coming to terms with change after leaving the Watchtower. It is all people know.
    For some, it is all people will cling to even after they leave. Some will never stop quoting the NWT,

    I was never a JW and I have cited from more than the NWT. See here.

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    Duran, you really are talking in circles and cannot stop, can you. You really think you are making sense, and that I am reading what you are writing, right?

    I'm not, dude. You're writing to no one. I gave up a long time ago. I've been pasting a cutting my replies a while back.

    You are wasting your time.


  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    But, it is possible to argue against 3 in 1...

    @PetrW

    It's possible to argue against anything, if you make enough scriptures symbolic. And now, thanks to the work of Ken Johnson, there are many more ancient writings from the patriarchs who started the Israeli people that will need to be ignored in order to continue to support Unitarianism/Arianism.

    When I got saved, I knew enough to know that I needed to enter into some sort of contract or agreement with Jesus. I was not fully on board with the Trinity at that time. So, I just shelved it for the time being.... neither rejecting nor fully accepting it. I then based my decision to move forward with Jesus on the scripture where he said, "All power has been given me in Heaven and Earth." I reasoned that All meant All and as such I was at the top with him... at least to the top that I was ever going to get.

    After I made the deal with Jesus and accepted his offer, I knew I was saved. I knew it in my innermost being. Within about 2 months after that I knew that Jesus was God Almighty, the Creator of Heaven and Earth. It never was a fully intellectual ascent. It happened about 3am in the morning while reading the Bible. The word of God is truly alive. It is unlike any other book on earth.

    Blessings to you on your journey.

    Here's some background on the Testimionies of the Patriarchs of the Jewish people:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEJNByx-KME&ab_channel=KenJohnson%28BibleFacts%29

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    These ancient Dead Sea Scrolls are interesting with their comments about God becoming a man. It shows that God had been revealing himself to people of faith in him for a very long time. But, just to be clear... scripture alone is sufficient to determine that we all - representatives of Jew and Gentile crucified Jehovah, the Lord of Glory.

    Isa. 42:8 I am the LORD [Jehovah]: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

    1Cor. 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    Jas. 2:1 - "Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory" .

    The Scripture plainly declares that Jesus Christ is the Lord of Glory [Jehovah] of Is. 42:8. He was killed by representatives of both Jew and Gentile.

    What a hideous, fallen caricature of the magnificient race we were originally created to be.

  • JW GoneBad
    JW GoneBad

    Liked:

    After I made the deal with Jesus and accepted his offer, I knew I was saved. I knew it in my innermost being. Within about 2 months after that I knew that Jesus was God Almighty, the Creator of Heaven and Earth. It never was a fully intellectual ascent. It happened about 3am in the morning while reading the Bible. The word of God is truly alive. It is unlike any other book on earth.

    ...and blessings to you Sea Breeze on your journey!👍

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    @SB

    I then based my decision to move forward with Jesus on the scripture where he said, "All power has been given me in Heaven and Earth."

    PW: I agree with you I stayed in this position. As I wrote, I consider the Trinity to be superfluous to my faith (see Ockham's Razor).

    But I, too, have seen a shift: I have stopped waging "battles" against Trinitarians. Rather, I have been pointing out the historical development of non-Trinitarianism*, especially in the 16th and 17th centuries, and that non-Trinitarians are not just and only JWs.

    I don't then use being a non-trinitarian as a theological "stick" on others just because they don't profess exactly what I do. On the other hand, I also don't see the threat of ending up in the lake of fire if I don't confess the Trinity. I increase my chances of getting into the lake of fire by other activities...

    * my wife and I even drove through a few have in Europe where anti-Trinitarians have left some mark to this day...

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