by Sea Breeze 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Shoot the messenger Fisherman?
???
Obviously, God did not anoint himself.
Jehovah, anointed Jesus, his only begotten son( benihaelohim -sons- of God aka angels), the first born of all creation. Almighty God, Jehovah was never born and never a son or a creature. That is nonsensical.
Trinity idea is just un-explainable. Jews and Muslims believe in one God for centuries yet Christians slowly adopted the Trinity.
Why did the NWT change it to "friend" if "son" always means "son" like you are saying?
First off, I never said it always means it. Also, it is not just the NWT that changes it to 'friend' but also others say, 'anyone', 'man', 'person', 'someone', etc.
But just as you contradicted yourself as shown here in your own words:
one cannot argue that the expression "son of X" in the Bible means "child of X,"
Yes, there are times the word "son" refers to a male child,
When it is speaking of Jesus being the 'son of God', are those times.
As well as:
Galatians 4:4-6 [But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son, who was born of a woman and who was under law, that he might release by purchase those under law, so that we might receive the adoption as sons.]
John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”
And here.
Duran writes:
First off, I never said it always means it. Also, it is not just the NWT that changes it to 'friend' but also others say, 'anyone', 'man', 'person', 'someone', etc.
You are just repeating my argument that I wrote in my first post. I stated that you never said this and that the Watchtower changed it and that other translations do this--and I used this to prove some of what I was saying. And I asked you to explain this...which you have not. You just repeated it.
Just posting it again without explaining it shows you are not very good at defending your points-just sort of dense.
But it is generally agreed that "Son of God" means that Jesus is God, not God's child:
Jesus is not God’s Son in the sense of a human father and a son. God did not get married and have a son. God did not mate with Mary and, together with her, produce a son. Jesus is God’s Son in the sense that He is God made manifest in human form (John 1:1, 14)....The Jewish leaders responded by accusing Jesus of blasphemy (Matthew 26:65-66). Later, before Pontius Pilate, “The Jews insisted, ‘We have a law, and according to that law He must die, because He claimed to be the Son of God’” (John 19:7). Why would His claiming to be the Son of God be considered blasphemy and be worthy of a death sentence? The Jewish leaders understood exactly what Jesus meant by the phrase “Son of God.” To be the Son of God is to be of the same nature as God. The Son of God is “of God.” The claim to be of the same nature as God—to in fact be God—was blasphemy to the Jewish leaders; therefore, they demanded Jesus’ death, in keeping with Leviticus 24:15. Hebrews 1:3 expresses this very clearly, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.”
What Does It Mean That Jesus Is The Son of God?--Another example can be found in John 17:12 where Judas is described as the “son of perdition.” John 6:71 tells us that Judas was the son of Simon. What does John 17:12 mean by describing Judas as the “son of perdition”? The word perdition means “destruction, ruin, waste.” Judas was not the literal son of “ruin, destruction, and waste,” but those things were the identity of Judas' life. Judas was a manifestation of perdition. In this same way, Jesus is the Son of God. The Son of God is God. Jesus is God made manifest (John 1:1, 14)
Why Is Jesus Called the Son of God?--Like the Father, Jesus is God. He always was, always is, and always will be. But unlike the Father, Jesus is also a human being. Though charged with blasphemy and crucified for claiming to be one with the Father, Jesus' resurrection validates his claim to be God's Son in a unique way. When we confess our belief that Jesus is the Son of God, we share in the love the Father has for the Son, becoming adopted children of God.
How Can Jesus Be Both God and the Son of God?--When we say that Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8), we are saying that Jesus possesses the divine nature (as well as human nature, see hypostatic union). But the term “Son of God” does not mean that Jesus is not God. Think about it. If the term “Son of God” meant that Jesus is not God, then does the term “Son of Man” mean that Jesus is not a man? Of course not. Likewise, if the term “Son of Man” means that Jesus is a man, then does it not imply that when it says Jesus is the “Son of God” that he is God? We ought not look at the ancient words found in Scripture and judge them by modern thinking.
What Does "Son of God?" Mean?--The phrase “son of” doesn’t mean that someone literally has to be born from someone. In fact, around when the Greek New Testament was written, Caesar was referred to as the Son of God Himself. What that phrase literally meant was, “the nature of.” Caesar was expressing the nature of. In fact, when you read the phrase “son of” within the Bible you find that that is true. In Acts 4, Barnabas is called the “son of encouragement”. In Mark 3, James and John are called the “sons of thunder.” Judas is referred to as the “son of perdition.” The nature of encouragement is seen in Barnabas. The nature of thunder is seen in James and John. The nature of hell is seen within Judas. So when Jesus is referred to as the “son of,” it’s not in reference to him being born from the father. It’s actually a claim of his deity.
I can keep going on, but nothing will change your mind. You won't believe me even if I were Jesus himself and Jesus told you himself that He was God.
You would just give him the JW teaching because you have to be right. I have nothing more to say to you.
Obviously, God did not anoint himself.
Fisherman,
Which is easier to do, annoint yourself or raise yourself from the dead?
Sea Breeze: This explains why he at times spoke as a man and at other times spoke as God..... because he was both, not just one of the other.
J 8:17-18: 17Even in your Law it has been written that the testimony of two people is true. 18I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.”
***
My comment: here Jesus even compares God to a human witness. But the point is that he is expressing the idea that they are two and at the same time two distinct beings...
@PetrW
That's another good example of a seeming contradiction Remember the biblical definition of personhood: Each component of man is identity - individually or collectively.
"I and my Father are one". - they share one spirit essence (which is omnipresent), one identity
vs.
" I am He who testifies about Myself, and the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.”
So, are they one or two? Both.
Jesus is not Jehovah. They are constituted differently. Jesus is body soul and spirit. That means he fits the biblical definition of a man.
But, Jehovah is Spirit ONLY. He doesn't have a body or soul. But since he and Jesus share the SAME ESSENCE, there is only ONE God here, not two.
All scripture is inspired. The model of things we adopt as well as our definition of terms must accomodate ALL scriptures, not just some.
The Lazy man waves his hand and simply labels something "symbolic" he doesn't understand or doesn't want to understand instead of adopting a model that accommodates all scripture. Here's another seeming contradiction for those still clinging to a WT model:
ALL POWER has been given me in heaven and earth (speaking as God)
vs.
The Father is greater than I (speaking as Man)
Jesus has a name above EVERY name ..... that includes Jehovah. Jehovah isn't slighted by the fact that the name of Jesus is higher than the name of Jehovah, because it's still him. And because of this, it is at the name of JESUS that every knee in earth AND heaven will bend.
When you start to grasp the biblical model, you start to get a grasp of the magnitude of exactly what happened to a little Jewish boy who was born in an insignificant town barely on the map some 2000 years ago.
@SB
My attitude is perhaps best expressed by the text: He who has seen me has seen the Father* (Jn 14:9) because by this I am looking at the texts, "I and the Father are one" or "The Father is greater than I". Jesus is Lord, and in that name is salvation. Nothing more is needed. No need for Trinitarian metaphysics, but no need for the magical incantations of JWs-theology regarding the name Jehovah 😊
SB: Jesus is not Jehovah. They are constituted differently. Jesus is body soul and spirit. That means he fits the biblical definition of a man. But, Jehovah is Spirit ONLY. He doesn't have a body or soul. But since he and Jesus share the SAME ESSENCE, there is only ONE God here, not two.
PW: interesting reasoning, but I see a major, almost insurmountable obstacle that if I claim that Jesus and the Father are one God, then there is a risk that I am claiming that Jesus did not die for us. God, or more accurately: part of God, would have died too. So here we have a one-third (the body died) dead God and a two-thirds living God. But there is no such doctrine in the NT. It works with the simple concept that Jesus, the Son of God and therefore God by origin, died and was resurrected by God, the Father, who has no beginning and no end. He is for ever and ever...
SB: Jesus has a name above EVERY name ..... that includes Jehovah. Jehovah isn't slighted by the fact that the name of Jesus is higher than the name of Jehovah, because it's still him. And because of this, it is at the name of JESUS that every knee in earth AND heaven will bend.
PW: In my opinion, the OT already offers a simple and reliable interpretation: Ex 23:20-21 20 "Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 "Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him."
*I have never seen Jesus yet, I only know he is in a place I can't go yet 😊
PetrW,
interesting reasoning, but I see a major, almost insurmountable obstacle that if I claim that Jesus and the Father are one God, then there is a risk that I am claiming that Jesus did not die for us. God, or more accurately: part of God, would have died too.
It is more than "interesting reasoning". It is the only model that accomodates all scriptures. It was rock solid Christian doctrine for nearly two millenia until the WT filled the world with thier printing presses to the contrary.
Remember, each component of man soul-body-spirit is each YOU. The scriptures assign personhood using pronouns to each component separately.
In other words,
I am a soul (identity) and I have a soul (component)
I am a body (identity) and I have a body (component)
I am a spirit (identity) and I have a spirit (component)
In the case of Jesus his spirit is the same essence of God
Jesus is Spirit/God (identity) and he has Spirit/God (component)
The personhood goes both ways - Jesus is God and God is also Jesus.
"shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. " (MEV)- Acts 20: 28
The Christian God bleeds.
Right Boogerman. Why do people get messed up over the word god? It just means someone greater. The angels are gods to us.
And Seabreeze "All the scriptures are inspired, and as such they all are true. Picking and choosing certain scriptures and ingnoring others is not honoring ALL the scriptures."
No, they are not. Paul said all scripture is inspired of God. He was referring to the prior writings and how they were the history of God's people and they were prophesies from God.
