Was Sin Inevitable?

by Parker 64 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Carmichael


    Hey Carmichael,

    Liked all the information you have posted on why Jews didn’t accept Jesus....Now I know why it’s very hard to mesh the Hebrew Scriptures with the Greek scriptures.


    The theology is called "public revelation." It differs from Christianity's "divine revelation" which can be private (a personal vision seen by a single prophet, like Jesus, or even a select few, like Peter, James, and John claiming to witness the Transfiguration or the Eight Witnesses who claimed to have seen the Golden Plates of the Book of Mormon).

    Public revelation is not necessarily divine, and in fact, most Jews don't believe it is. To illustrate, except for the Ultra-Orthodox, Jews don't believe the Torah was divinely inspired as Christians do. They believe it was a product of the Jewish people. It was what our ancient teachers and sages believed that "God" required of the nation of Israel in order for us to be a nation of just people, even though these ancient teachers and sages held this concept of "God" to be ineffable. Today the spectrum of modern Judaism outside of Orthodoxy holds that God is either some sort of Person, Beginning or Power, but still ineffable and not the author of the Torah or any of the Bible books.

    The nation as a whole, however, received this "revelation" through its teachers and sages. Sometimes they were called Prophets. Other times they were just scribes. Nevertheless, the nation of Israel as a whole recognized the teaching as authoritative. The Orthodox have their own view of this form of revelation and see it as a supernatural event that occurred publicly before Israel. Whichever form, however, it is never hidden and requires national recognition.

    "Divine revelation," basically, is Christian, and involves a supernatural event. It often occurs to a prophet or a chosen few. It can involve supernatural visions, voices, miracles, healings, etc., that are usually given approval by a hierarchal authority. Divine revelation must be accepted by masses after it has been witnessed and approved by the few.

    Jesus of Nazareth received his so-called Messiah-ship via "divine revelation" and not "public revelation." Jews do not accept private, so-called divine revelations given to the few. The teaching of the Messiah is that the Messiah was to be heralded publically, not privately.

    Today, modern Jews don't believe there will ever be a monarchy over Israel. The belief in the coming Messiah is seen to be a future hope in world peace, not in the coming of a personal monarch.

  • pistolpete

    Hey Carmichael

    The Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah is because the historical Jesus of Nazareth was nothing like the Gospel Jesus

    Could you shed some light on what you mean by the historical Jesus was nothing like the Gospel Jesus?

    Are the Gospel stories of Jesus just made up?

    Was Jesus just a preacher like Charles Russell and then Christians added the story of Jesus resurrecting Lazarus, feeding thousands with a few fishes and bread, walking on water and so on?

    OR--was Jesus just another Ron Hubbard who turned religious, became a preacher, and just happened to attract a small group of people who just by coincidence grew into this world-wide phenomena called----CHRISTIANS?

  • Carmichael

    The majority of scholars who weigh in on the subject, whether they are religious or not, believe that Jesus of Nazareth was a historical person. Judaism tends to agree.

    I don't know anything beyond this personally, but I do know that the Gospels, from a critical Christian take, are not viewed as 100% historical. They can't be as none of them agree with one another.

    There are things in the Gospels that even Christian scholars know are not historical. This is just one example.

    Matthew chapter 21, the famous and most important triumphant entry into Jerusalem by Jesus, celebrated every Palm Sunday by Christians, read as follows:

    When they drew near Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an ass tethered, and a colt with her. Untie them and bring them here to me. And if anyone should say anything to you, reply, ‘The master has need of them.’ Then he will send them at once.”
    This happened so that what had been spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled:
    “Say to daughter Zion,
    ‘Behold, your king comes to you,
    meek and riding on an ass,
    and on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’”
    The disciples went and did as Jesus had ordered them. They brought the ass and the colt and laid their cloaks over them, and he sat upon them.--Matthew 21:1-7, New American Bible, official Roman Catholic Version in the USA.

    The footnote to this reads, in part:

    Isa 62.11; Zec. 9.9. The ass and the colt are the same animal in the prophecy, mentioned twice in different ways, the common Hebrew literary device of poetic parallelism. That Matthew takes them as two is one of the reasons why some scholars think that he was a Gentile rather than a Jewish Christian who would presumably not make that mistake...[painting] an awkward picture resulting from Matthew’s misunderstanding of the prophecy.

    Note also the famous Beatitudes or Sermon on the Mount:

    “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.--Matthew 5:3.--NAB.

    The footnote reads, in part:

    Although modified by Matthew, the first, second, fourth, and ninth beatitudes have Lucan parallels. The others were added by the evangelist and are probably his own composition....Matthew added "in spirit" in order either to indicate that only the devout poor were meant or to extend the beatitude to all, of whatever social rank, who recognized their complete dependence on God. --NAB.

    So while even present-day Christian recognize that the Gospel writers added traditions to their writings that did not originate with Jesus, does this mean Jesus was "just a preacher like Charles Russell" as you put it?

    No. While Jesus is not recognized as the Messiah by Jews, he is recognized as a great Jewish teacher, otherwise known as a Jewish Sage.

    In December of 2015, the Orthodox Rabbinic Statement on Christianity said about Jesus, in part:

    We acknowledge that the emergence of Christianity in human history is neither an accident nor an error, but the willed divine outcome and gift to the nations....Rabbi Jacob Emden wrote that “Jesus brought a double goodness to the world. On the one hand he strengthened the Torah of Moses majestically… and not one of our Sages spoke out more emphatically concerning the immutability of the Torah. On the other hand he removed idols from the nations and obligated them in the seven commandments of Noah so that they would not behave like animals of the field, and instilled them firmly with moral traits…..Christians are congregations that work for the sake of heaven who are destined to endure, whose intent is for the sake of heaven and whose reward will not denied.”

    Russell's work did not effect the nations as did that of Jesus' of Nazareth.

    Did Jesus feed thousands with a few fish and a loaves of bread? Did he walk on water?

    I don't believe in the supernatural. A lot of Jews are like me who don't believe in a God that breaks the laws of nature and supernaturally gives his sages and prophets abilities that amaze and bewilder. If there is a God, why do you need a miracle? Isn't the world we live in and the starry heavens enough proof for you?

    But I am not here to judge. The Gospels may be stories like our Jewish myths that are meant to teach lessons, not report on history. Too many people might have lost the point of the Gospels and attribute to Jesus the wrong things. That would be a shame.

  • pistolpete

    The Gospels may be stories like our Jewish myths that are meant to teach lessons, not report on history. Too many people might have lost the point of the Gospels and attribute to Jesus the wrong things. That would be a shame.


    Thanks For the information.

  • jp1692

    "Sometimes life gives us these little gifts."- Theodore "Ted" Crawford (Fracture, 2007)


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