DJhine,
Amazing. I can assure you that is not mainline catholic or protestant teaching ☺️. Conservative commentators may say it seems but it can not be.
Interesting info here:
Help please
by jhine 51 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Doug Mason
Was Jesus a human?
Did a spirit being enter Mary's egg and take over?
Does the Watchtower have its own "Trinity" of Spirit Being => Human => Spirit Being, with continuity but no continuity?
What was resurrected?
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JoenB75
He was created 3 times. Neither Russell nor JWs had a two natures teaching. So they would he was created as that spirit creature servant who created all other things, then he was created as a man in Mary (with a knowledge of his heavenly past) and finally he was created back to spirit creature as a resurrection from the grave. They argue his human existence was the ransom, therefore it/the body could not be raised.
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jhine
I appear to have copied all of this by mistake but the first bit explains that there is no inconsistency in the " all " Colossians 1:20—Does this verse teach that all will be saved (universalism)?
Problem: The Apostle Paul wrote to the Colossians, “For it was the Father’s good pleasure ... through Him [Christ] to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven” (Col. 1:19–20, nasb). If Paul says that all things are reconciled to Christ by His death and resurrection, this seems to imply that all people are saved. But other Scriptures declare that many will be lost (e.g., Matt. 7:13–14; 25:41; Rev. 20:11–15).
Solution: First of all, Paul is not speaking about universal salvation here, but simply universal sovereignty of Jesus Christ. In other words, all authority has been given to Jesus Christ in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18). By virtue of His death and resurrection, Christ as the Last Adam is Lord over all that was lost by the First Adam (cf. 1 Cor. 15:45–49).
Note the contrast between two crucial passages by Paul:
When Paul speaks of being “in Christ” (i.e., being saved), he does not include “those under the earth” (i.e., the lost). However, all persons, saved and unsaved, will one day bow before Christ and acknowledge His universal lordship. But nowhere do the Scriptures teach that all people will be saved. Jesus will say to many, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matt. 25:41). John spoke of the devil, the beast and the false prophet, and all whose names are not written in the Book of Life being cast into the lake of fire forever (Rev. 20:10–15). Luke speaks of a great impassible gulf between heaven and hell in which those who have rejected God are living in torment (Luke 16:19–31). Paul speaks of punishment on the wicked as “everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thes. 1:7–9). Jesus declared Judas was lost and called him “the son of perdition” (John 17:12). It is evident from all these passages that not everyone will be saved.
This excerpt is from When Critics Ask: A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties (Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books, 1992). © 2014 Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe. All rights reserved. Used by permission. Click here to purchase this book.
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JoenB75
Jhine,.
So big surprise you do not believe all things means all things in verse 20 but you do in verse 16. Thank you for proving my point though it took a while ☺️
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jhine
l also found useful in understanding this passage in context the commentary by William Barclay on Col 1 . He explains that Paul was writing this letter to the Colossian church at a time when Gnostics were trying to stamp their beliefs on the Gospel . Gnostics taught that all matter was evil and so God couldn't touch it , so He created a series of angels each one further away from Him until there was enough space between Him and evil matter for one of those angels to work on creation . They believed that Jesus was just one of these angels , so a bit like WT teaching .
A knock on effect of that was that the body was considered evil so Jesus as the revelation of God could not have had a flesh and blood body . "So Paul speaks of Jesus reconciling man to God in his body of flesh , he says that the fullness of the godhead dwelt in him bodily . In opposition the the Gnostics , Paul insisted on the flesh and blood manhood of Jesus " Barclay's words .
So regarding the reconciliation of all things Barclay says
"There is no doubt that Paul was thinking of the Gnostics . We will remember that they , regarding matter as essentially evil , therefore regarded the world as evil , but as Paul sees it the world is not evil . It is God's world and shares in the universal reconciliation . "
For me understanding the context of the letter helps with understanding what Paul is saying , in the light of the Gnostic invasion of the Colossian church .
Jan
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jhine
JoenB75 , l do believe that all things means all things , l don't believe that reconciliation equates to salvation .
Jan
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JoenB75
H Jhine,
Well William Barclay and I disagree ☺️ . We believe all things means all things 🤭
I wonder what reconciliation with sinners means
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JoenB75
Reconciliation means to make friends. Colossians 1:20 is saying that God will bring peace and make friends will all, even satan and the demons provided they are rational creatures. The all here are just as universal as in the verses 16-19. As William Barclay, who I dont up on a pedestal at all, he just happens to be universalist, honest in this context, and famous expert in biblical Greek and Hellenism, said, "We must note that Paul says that in Christ God was reconciling all things to himself. The Greek is a neuter (panta, Greek #3956). The point is that the reconciliation of God extends not only to all persons but to all creation, animate and inanimate." This was also the doctrine of Origen, Clement of Alexandria etc. They got it from the Bible and they did not have the concept of "eternal time" back then, so their biblical letters did not speak of eternal punishment . But before this is a reality, we experience seperation and judgments. The human experience on this earth has lasted over 100.000 years and as the old scholar Milton Terry said, it might last a million more. This is also why Paul elsewhere says Jesus is the saviour of all, (but) especially believers 1 Tim 4v10. One funny example is the socalled prodigal son. The Greek says the son perished. He perished but was later given grace.
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Doug Mason
jhine,
What makes you think that the writers of Colossians were correct or that they knew what they were talking about?
Nobody knows what was originally written in any Biblical document. No one. And it is possible there was no single original. given their procedures.
Doug
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