Help please

by jhine 51 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  slimboyfat

  Jesus is distinguished from the creator repeatedly in the New Testament. There is hardly a subject which is repeated so often or in such clear terms. God created everything “through” Jesus. God is the creator, not Jesus.

  Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

  Col 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

  John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

  1 Cor 8: 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
• 

  JoenB75

  slimboyfat,

  I wonder what you think it means that all things were made through the Son. You say Jesus is distinguished from the creator. I dont see the word creator in any of the verses you quote. God the Father and Jesus Christ are different revelations but they are certainly both the creator. If the Son was not the creator, what sense would it make to say all things were made through him. I suspect the reason for the language is Logos theology. Logos is the cause of all things and philosophically spoken of as something God possess.
• 

  TD

  JoenB75

  
  

  Everything is within context of the spoken subject.

  
  

  Yes. Thank you.

  
  

  The NIV is actually much farther from the word for word end of the spectrum than the JW's NWT, and as such, illustrates your point very well

  The Greek text at John 8:2, for example, does not say the people "gathered around" Jesus; it simply says they came to him. (..ἤρχετο πρὸς αὐτόν) This intimation of a smaller, rather cozy circle of people is an embellishment of the translator.
• 

  JoenB75

  Oh yes I can only imagine translation is very complicated. Good thing we have many versions in English. I remember the Christadelphians did not recommend the NIV despite its beautiful language. It has an Evangelical bias. One example is when the NIV in Phil 2:6 says "in the very nature God" and then the footnote gives the usual translation "in the form of God". Today having a Modalist understanding of God and believing the passage describes the incarnation of the very God, I would enjoy translation but in the old days I would believe it was a biased one.
• 

  JoenB75
• 

  Rattigan350

  " if the NWT changes these verses to alter the meaning"

  The only one who knows the meaning of those verses is the writer, the apostle John.

  The fact that there are disputes about how they are to be translated shows that people don't have an understanding of its meaning.

  What the NWT translators did was have those scriptures conform to the teachings of the rest of the Bible in that Jesus was created by Jehovah. Jesus could not create all things because Jesus was part of the all things that were created. Jesus was not God as he was the son of God.
  
• 

  JoenB75

  Ratigan350.

  The JWs want Jesus to be a created angel and so they mess with the biblical Logos theology. Since 1953, the main character of the New Testament, our Lord and God, is not to receive worship according to the JW leaders. God has a different opinion in Hebrews 1:6, Philippians 2:11 etc. They teach this being that is supposed to have created all [other] things is "one of the chief princes" (Daniel 10:13). Unable to find a teaching concerning this created being in the old testament, they must take Proverbs 8 out of context, it is a poetical story of wisdom vs. foolishness. It is very unlikely their guess is right, to put it mildly.
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  What the NWT translators did was have those scriptures conform to the teachings of the rest of the Bible in that Jesus was created by Jehovah. Jesus
  

  Where does the rest of the Bible teach that Jesus was created?
• 

  jhine

  Firstly , yes JoenB75 , l think that the " all " in those verses refers to all the people present at the time . So , as you say , all the people at the river listening to John . Not all of Israel , that is why l see no problem with all meaning all .

  Ratigan350 l , like Vanderhoven7 would like to know where the Bible teaches that Jesus was created .

  The Psalms are full of verses making it clear that God / Jehovah created everything Himself .

  Psalm 8 : 3

  When l consider your heavens , the work of your fingers , the moon and the stars which you set in place .

  Psalm 19 : 1

  The heavens declare the glory of the Lord , the skies proclaim the work of his hands

  Psalm 24 1-2

  The earth is the Lord's and everything in it ; for he founded it on the seas and established it on the waters .

  That last one is interesting as Col 1 : 16 says " For in him ( the Son ) all things were created ..... all things have been created through him and for HIM "

  So it seems to me that the writer of Colossians is at pains to make the point that Jesus is not a created being .

  Jan
• 

  jhine

  l said that l would do a straw poll about the " all " Col 1:20 , so through extensive research ( not ) l asked 6 people at random what their thoughts were about that " all " . They all said that it meant all ( are you still following this ) , everything , the lot etc .

  Not sure what that proves except that some people in my church are consistent in their all .

  Jan