Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze 43 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Vidqun

    Sea Breeze, according to your timetable the rapture is imminent. Therefore we do not have to wait too long to see whether it materializes. As for the grafting in, yes, individual Israelites will be grafted in after the full number of the nations had come in. The Bible calls these the remnant.

    As explained, the first resurrection will not be simultaneous but will take place in stages (Matt. 24:31; Rev. 11:11, 12, 15, 18).

    That is not exactly what scripture says. It says we are not appointed to wrath (period). Jesus is not a wife-beater.

    Not sure where the wife-beater part fits in. But here is what the Scriptures do say. First of all, the sealed ones will not be harmed by God’s judgments of trumpet blasts or plagues (e.g., Rev. 9:4; cf. 16:2). Secondly, they will be persecuted by the powers that be:

    42 month trampling of temple courtyard: The outer courtyard of the temple sanctuary i.e., a part of the Israel of God, is to be trampled by the nations for 42 months (Gal. 6:15, 16; Rev. 11:2; cf. Dan. 7:25; 12:7; 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; Eph. 2:21, 22).

    1,260 day ministry and death of the two prophets: The two prophets will be prophesying for 1,260 days. As seen, their public ministry will start immediately after the sixth trumpet blast (Rev. 9:13; 11:3). 1,260 days will then overlap with the 42 months of trampling, which starts in the middle of the Tribulation period.

    Time, times and half a time: Under the auspices of the eleventh horn of Daniel’s fourth beast, God’s holy ones will be harassed or worn down for three and a half years. These will actually be under the control of the horn for the duration of this time (cf. Rev. 11:2). The horn follows in the footsteps of the beast with one of its heads having received a death-stroke that healed. Its authority to act was also to be 42 months (13:2, 5, 7). However, Daniel’s “time, and times and half a time” covers the second half of the Tribulation because at the end of it the horn is destroyed.

    Last, but not least, is Daniel 8. I believe it points to the near future. The angel Gabriel informs Daniel: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end” [“the end time,” NAB] (Dan. 8:17b). Gabriel continues: “Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part [’acharith] of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end.” Note, the sanctuary will only be restored at the end of the 2,300 evening-morning time period.

    10 It grew great, even to the host of heaven. And some of the host and some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them.

    11 It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown.

    12 And a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of transgression, and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper.

    13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, "For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?"

    14 And he said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state." (Dan. 8:10-14 ESV)

  • nicolaou
  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze


    Given the disagreements over the millennium in church history, it is wise to hold our millennial views with humility. I personally don't want to divide believers. But, the topic....especially given our WT background and training is important to unraveling the WT mess we all found ourselves in at one time. So, I proceeed with these views in mind.

    Historical Note: Prior to Augustine, amillennialism was associated with the allegorizing and spiritualizing school of theology in Alexandria, Egypt, which not only opposed premillennialism but subverted a literal exegesis of Scripture. In Antioch, where believers were first called Christians, there was a Christian school that promoted a literal reading of scripture and premillenialism (literal 1000 yr. reign). Both schools produced Christian leaders and copies of scripture. Looking at what they produced in terms of both leaders and manuscripts is very eye-opening.

    As for the grafting in, yes, individual Israelites will be grafted in after the full number of the nations had come in.

    But, that is not what the text says does it? It says "all Israel will be saved" in Romans 11

    BTW: You never answered my questionns here:

    When has this ever happened:

    “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” - Zech. 8:23

    Or, when has this ever happened?

    “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.” Zech. 14: 16

    Or this?

    The nations will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore (Ezek 37.28)

    Are all these scriptures above symbolic in your view?

  • Vidqun

    Sea Breeze, I believe you answered those questions yourself.

    Your definition of Israel: The Republic of Israel, member of the United Nations, etc. God's covenant with them annulled (Zech. 11:10). Jesus said: "Your house has been abandoned to you," and "The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits." (Matt. 21:43; 23:38)

    My definition of Israel: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female– for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to the promise." (Gal. 3:28-29 NET)

    So, it's not a question of literal or symbolic. It has to to do with obedience and doing God's will.

  • Duran

    @ nicolaou


  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze


    So, I guess these detailed scriptures regarding Israel are symbolic in your view?

    “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” - Zech. 8:23

    “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.” Zech. 14: 16

    Wow. There are more scriptures like this as well.

    So, when you read the word "Israel" in Scripture" you think - Church. Try reading Romans 9-11 and every time it says “Israel”, replace it with the word “Church”. You will quickly see that it makes no sense at all.

    Israel really means Israel in both the Old and the New Testaments. While the New Testament often describes Israel and the Church in similar terms – both are the Bride of God, children of God, the chosen people, and so on – never does the New Testament call the Church “Israel”.

    In the past, people have clung to Galatians 6:16 as an example of how Israel can mean the church, but let’s examine that verse…

    Galatians 6:16 says: “Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God,” (RSV) or “Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.” (NIV).

    But if we look at what the text actually says in the original, these translations have missed a key Greek word:

    καὶ ὅσοι τῷ κανόνι τούτῳ στοιχήσουσιν, εἰρήνη ἐπ᾽ αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔλεος, καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ.

    Literally translated: And as many as (whoever) to the rule this shall be elementing (observing the fundamentals), peace on them and mercy, and (also) on the Israel of the God.

    Bible scholar, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, writes that people who would claim that Israel means the church “must ignore the primary meaning of kai which separates the two groups in the verse in order to make them both the same group”, and Dr. S. Lewis Johnson, who taught Greek and New Testament Exegesis at Dallas Theological Seminary, believes that, “the least likely view among several alternatives is the view that the ‘Israel of God’ is the church.”

    The word “Israel” occurs 70 times in the New Testament and all but two of these instances are unequivocally referring to the nation of Israel, and not to the Church. I have covered one of those instances above - Gal. 6: 16

    Let's look at the other one now:

    Romans 9:6 - “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.”

    The context of this statement is found in verses 1-8. Paul is expressing his love for Israel even in her unbelieving condition. He recounts her great benefits in having the covenants and the law and the fathers and chiefly as being “of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came.”

    Since the question would arise how could God’s promises to Israel be reconciled with her present rebellion, Paul answers this. He says, “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.” He is simply saying that a Jew is not saved because he is born into Israel and is of the physical seed of Abraham. Just because someone is born into Israel or converts to Judaism doesn’t mean he automatically inherits the promises of God. The promises of God are not through the law of Moses.

    Paul proves this by pointing out that not all of Abraham’s children inherited his promises (Ro. 9:6-8). This is what Paul had already stated in Romans 2:28-29.

    John the Baptist and Christ taught the same thing. See Luke 3:8-9; John 8:39-44.

    In this passage, Paul uses the term “Israel” in two ways. First, he uses it to refer to all Jews and to all the nation Israel (Ro. 9:4). Then he uses it to refer to the true Israel which is the saved Israel (Ro. 9:6).

    Again, Romans 9:6 does not say that a Jew is not a Jew or that an Israelite is not an Israelite. It is not saying that the true Israel consists of New Testament Christians. Paul says nothing here about the church replacing Israel. He is simply explaining what a true Israelite or Jew is before God. He is saying that salvation is not by being a physical descendant of Abraham.

    The “explosion in knowledge” and great “increase in people traveling to and fro” that Daniel the prophet wrote of (Daniel 12:4) now makes perfect sense with the development of the internet and air travel.

    Likewise, for centuries, it did not dawn on some Bible scholars that the term Israel could possibly truly refer to the actual nation of Israel since they ceased to exist. . So, they imposed their understanding on scripture using the symbolic magic wand. But, a real (not symbolic) miracle happened when the nation reimerged in 1948, in fulfillment of bible prophecy.

    The last chapter in the Bible consistently and repeatedly teaches that God is not finished with the nation Israel and that the church has not replaced Israel.

    Briefly, Replacement Theology takes a few verses out of context and uses them to overthrow the teaching of the entire Bible. This, of course, is the standard operation procedure of false teaching and one we are all too familiar with since we were previously subjected to the symbolic magic wand weilded by the Watchtower.

  • Vidqun

    Sea Breeze, let’s rather say, replacement theology emphasizes a few fundamental verses which place all other passages and verses in clear perspective. Those are some of the verses I quoted. E.g., if someone says Enoch and Elijah went to heaven, then there’s just one verse needed to cancel such a statement and that is Jesus’ words at John 3:13. End of story.

    I am about to test the generalization of Gal. 6:16 according to your Bible scholars. Let’s first look at the meaning of καί.

    ΚΑ´Ι Conjunction, used in two principal senses, either copulative, to join words and sentences, and, Lat. et; or making a single word or clause emphatic, also, even, Lat. etiam.

    A. copulative, and, merely joining words or sentences.

    B. influencing single words or clauses, also, even, Lat. etiam, ἔπειτά με καὶ λίποι αἰών then let life also forsake me, i.e. life as well as all other goods, Il.; καὶ αὐτοί they also, they likewise, Xen.; εἴπερ τισκαὶ ἄλλος Plat., etc. Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon (abridged).

    3169 καί conj. and, also, but, even; that is, namely; καὶ . . . καί both . . . and, not only . . . but also; frequently used merely to mark the beginning of a sentence (UBS Lex).

    How does the majority of scholars and editors interpret the “Israel” of Gal. 6:16?

    Ἰσραήλ, ο: figuratively, of Christians as the new covenant people of God Israel (Gal. 6.16). See ANLEX.

    ὁ Ἰσραήλ τοῦ Θεοῦ (genitive of possession), i. e. Christians, Gal. 6:16 (See Thayer).

    of Christians as participants in the privileges of Israel Ro 9:6b; Gal 6:16. [pg 95] (See Gingrich Lex).

    believers within God’s promise system as authentic Israelites Ro 9:6b; Gal 6:16. (See Danker Lex).

    After Deutero-Isaiah and Ezra, many attempts were made to define the true Israel. Paul speaks of Christians as the true “Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16). See Eerdman’s Dictionary of the Bible.

    And here’s an interesting and balanced discussion of “Israel” of Gal. 6:16:

    There is widespread agreement that the Pauline reference to the Israel of God (Gal 6:16) refers to Christians, either to Jewish Christians as distinguished from other Christians by the copula καί (Schrenk) or — by means of the epexegetical function of καί — to all Christians, as in the preceding discussion. Neither explanation is, however, totally satisfactory, for, on the one hand, nothing indicates a limitation of the saying to Jewish Christians (Dahl, et al., against Schrenk); on the other hand, it is evident that "addition of καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ . . . (widens) the circle of addressees" (F. Mussner, Gal [HTKNT] 417). A possible explanation is offered in the extension of the greeting of peace (cf. H. Lietzmann and W. G. Kümmel, 1-2 Cor [HNT, 51969] on 1 Cor 1:2b!) to "the total Israel of God, wherever they may be" (H. Schlier, Gal [KEK] 283). But one may not exclude the possibility that here the original Israel comes into view (D. Lührmann, Gal [ZBK] 102), either in its portion which does not yet believe, but will come to faith in the future — "an Israel (of God) within (all) Israel" (Richardson 82; similarly: E. D. Burton, Gal [ICC] 357f.) — or (more probably) the same as the πᾶς Ἰσραήλ of Rom 11:26 (Mussner, Gal 417n.61). See EDNT.

  • PetrW


    As a side note on the creation of the state of Israel: according to a book by Pawel Sudoplatow (who was head of the subversion and intelligence department of the Russian NKVD/KGB in the 1940s and 1950s), the decision to create the state of Israel was made by negotiations between the three powers: the USA, England and the USSR sometime around 1943. The Russians proposed Crimea. It was a cold political calculation, because during WWII they were trying to raise money from wealthy Jewish groups - in return for a promise that the Russians would support the creation of a Jewish state. So Israel could have been in Russia. Then after the war, the US and England, broke their agreements with the USSR and supported a Palestinian version of a Jewish state. Again, the Russians were tactical because they (correctly) believed that if they did not prevent the creation of Israel in Palestine, then the anti-British, anti-Israel, Arab states would become natural allies of the USSR.

    My point is that the creation of Israel in 1948 (at the start of the Cold War) was more the result of power struggles than God directing Stalin's tactics. To see in Stalin, some kind of modern Cyrus the Great liberating the Jews, I don't know ... ???

  • aqwsed12345

    You can't talk about the spiritual Israel here, precisely because the spiritual Israel does not break down into "tribes." So, whoever becomes a member of the Church, or the spiritual Israel through baptism, will not be given a "tribe." Tribes are physical descendants, so referencing Bible verses that talk about God accepting the Gentiles as well doesn't fit here. This is true, but it doesn't apply here because they are also Israel, but not according to the tribe. Here, however, we're talking about Israelites by tribe.

    The elect have two major groups in terms of origin, but the hope for both is the same (Ephesians 4:3-6): from the Jews (verses 4-7) and the Gentiles (from verse 9). The angel who marks God's faithful has God's sign or seal. In the past, soldiers and slaves also wore a mark. This marking reminds us of Ezekiel's prophecy, where the tau letter in the form of a cross is used for marking (9:4-6); the mark represents God's ownership. This marking is caricatured by the mark of the beast (Revelation 13:16). The word "seal" was also an early name for baptism.

    Among the tribes, the tribe of Dan does not appear; perhaps intentionally, because according to Jewish belief, the Antichrist will come from the tribe of Dan. In its place is the tribe of Manasseh, Joseph's son.

    Thus, the lineage of Dan, which especially marked itself with idolatry, is excluded, implying that all those who resemble them, those who love the world more than God, will share their fate and won't be part of the elect. Idolatry first appeared in Dan's lineage (Judges 18), and Jeroboam's calf was in his territory (1 Kings 12:30). Dan is not counted among the rest in the Book of Chronicles (1 Chronicles 4–8). Instead of the tribe of Ephraim, Joseph appears because Ephraim divided the unity of Israel. So, the 144,000, marked from every tribe of Israel, represent the Jews converted to Christianity. Then verse 9 continues:

    "After this, I saw a huge crowd, too large to count, from every nation, tribe, people, and language standing in front of the throne and the Lamb."
    Lest anyone think that the elect are only Christians converted from Jews, John is shown an even larger Christian army from the Gentiles, indicating that it's mainly the Gentiles who populate the Church, as the army of the chosen converted from the Gentiles is vast. The contrast is clear:

    In Revelation 7:4, only those "from the tribes of the sons of Israel" (from the tribes originating from Jacob's 12 sons) are mentioned. In contrast, Revelation 7:9 speaks of "every nation, tribe, people, and language." Note: for the sons of Israel, tribes are mentioned [since Israel was divided into tribes], while for the Gentiles, nations, peoples, and languages are discussed.

    The symbolic number in 7:4 also expresses that since "their minds were blinded, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." (2 Corinthians 3:14-16). Therefore, the number of Jewish converts to Christianity is negligible compared to the converted from the Gentiles (7:9), who make up a great multitude.

    The numbers and symbols in the Book of Revelation have led many astray over 2000 years, so it's essential to understand that this is just an expressive tool for conveying theological truth. The meanings of the numbers found in the Book of Revelation are:

    • One-first: exclusivity, primacy, dignity
    • Three and a half: limited time, defined period
    • Four: universality
    • Six: perfection, in a negative sense
    • Seven: completeness, perfection in a positive sense
    • Twelve: Israel, the entirety of the chosen people
    • Thousand: multitude, large number
    See: https://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Revelation_Numbers.htm

    The numbers and symbols shed light on the theological truth God wanted to convey: this world will end, God will judge everything, then create a new world.Different tribal lists were not entirely consistent even in the Old Testament. Indeed, this fact shatters your attempt to entirely bracket the 144,000 Israelites. Because if the absence of the tribe of Dan did not bother the author of the Chronicles (even though only the Jews were the chosen people at that time), then today, when only a part of the chosen people are of Jewish origin, why should the omission of the tribe of Dan disturb us in accepting the Israelite origin of the 144,000 as John writes it?

    "And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand from all the tribes of Israel were sealed." (Revelation 7:4)

    It's hard for you to resist the clear teachings of the Bible and to reach far with the "leaping" Watchtower tactic for ideological ammunition when it's close to you in the Book of Revelation. The tribe of Joseph indeed existed, divided into two half-tribes: Ephraim, Manasseh. Basic things the Watchtower has to deny. In Numbers 2:17, the Levites marched in good order between Gad and Ephraim.

    There is also a list in which the tribe of Joseph appears, and Levi too:

    "These shall stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people, when you have crossed over the Jordan: Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph, and Benjamin. And these shall stand on Mount Ebal to curse: Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali." (Deuteronomy 27:12-13:)
    You have to realize that God freely rearranged the twelve tribes even in the Old Testament. Here is a summary of the tribe lists. There may be inaccuracies in it, but the overall picture is sure to confuse the simple Jehovah's Witness who, blindly following his brochures, wants to exploit the Old Testament listings as something clear against the list in Revelation.


    The Watchtower Society claims that exactly 144,000 make up the heavenly hope class of believers. The 144,000 cannot be literally Jewish because (1) the tribal list does not match the Old Testament lists, (2) the tribe of Joseph never existed, (3) Dan and Ephraim are missing from it, (4) and the Levites were not counted as a separate tribe.

    The Society overlooks several pieces of biblical information. More than two dozen tribe lists can be found in the Old Testament, only three of which match perfectly, and some are even incomplete (e.g., Deut. 33). According to the Bible, Joseph was Jacob's son, so he was indeed the founder of one of the 12 tribes. Tribe lists usually mention one of his two sons: Ephraim or Manasseh. The Revelation 7 list is unprecedented only in that both Joseph and Manasseh (father and one of his sons) appear as separate tribes. The reason is clearly the omission of Dan, who became an idolater (Lev. 24:11, Judges 18:1.30, 1 Kings 12:28-29), and Ephraim (Judges 17, Hosea 4:17). Levi is included because, although he had no land, he was originally Jacob's son and counted as a separate tribe by blood. Finally, it should be noted that in Moses' blessing, both the tribe of Joseph and the tribe of Levi are included (see Deut. 33). Perhaps they missed that in Revelation 7, the 144,000 are not yet in heaven but are on the earth. God's plagues and the earthly disaster can only be released after they are marked, sealed, to protect them from or during the plagues. It makes sense that they will all survive the great tribulation, or at least its beginning, doesn't it? But then how can they be identified with the "anointed" of the entire 2000 years, as the Society does? How have they been continuously called since the 1st century, and only about 9,000 remain today when all 144,000 are on the earth before and at the beginning of the "great tribulation"?

    The 144,000 are about the converted Jews; the Society believes they cannot be Jews because the list of tribes does not match one of the Old Testament lists, but on the one hand, only three of the twenty tribe lists in the Old Testament match (!), and on the other hand, Dan and Ephraim are missing because of idolatry. It only differs in two respects and for good reason. This does not exclude that Chapter 7 talks about Israel. In fact, it specifically talks about the tribes of Israel. Whoever does not belong to a tribe is not Israel. Dan's tribe does not appear among the tribes, perhaps because according to Jewish belief, the Antichrist comes from the tribe of Dan. In its place is the tribe of Manasseh, the son of Joseph. So the tribe of Dan, which distinguished itself by idolatry, is excluded, meaning that all those who resemble it, love the world more than God, share its fate, and will not have a part in the election. Idolatry first reared its head in the tribe of Dan (Judges 18) and was in its district during Jeroboam's calf (1 Kings 12:30). Dan has not been counted with the others since the Book of Chronicles (Chron. 1: 4-8). Instead of the tribe of Ephraim, Joseph is mentioned because Ephraim divided Israel's unity.

    Here we are talking about the converted members of physical Israel, which is divided into "tribes". So, whoever becomes a member of the church, that is, spiritual Israel, through baptism, will not receive a "tribe". The tribes are physical descendants.

    There are two major groups of elect in terms of origin, but the hope for both is the same (Eph 4:3-6): from the Jews (verses 4-7) and the Gentiles (from verse 9). The angel who marks God's believers has God's sign, his seal.

    This is a detailed discussion about the biblical concept of the 144,000 and its interpretation, particularly as presented by the Watchtower Society.Dan, the fifth son of Jacob, was born from Rachel's maid, Bilhah. According to Genesis 46:23, when Dan came to Egypt with his father and brothers, he had only one son. We can read this very briefly: "And the son of Dan was...” and then follows the name: “Hushim". In contrast, the youngest son, Benjamin, already had ten children by then. However, two hundred years later, after the tribe of Judah, Dan was the largest in terms of numbers (Numbers 1:27, 39). The number of Judah's warrior men was 74,600, while Dan's was 62,700. So, the tribe of Dan represented a very significant force. According to Numbers 10:25, it also played a prominent role in the camp order. He was one of the four main flag bearers and provided security for the army as a rear guard.

    Without the Israelites, the tribes would not be mentioned separately. How could the tribe of Joseph never have existed? Israel, Joseph's both sons were adopted by him, and he gave them his name (Israel) (Genesis 48:1-22).

    "Now, therefore, your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; Ephraim and Manasseh will be mine, just as Reuben and Simeon are mine." (Genesis 48:5)

    Israel adopted Joseph's two sons, so Joseph formed a double lineage. This duality emphasized that Israel (Jacob) accepts both as if they were his. Joseph received the right of the firstborn, primarily for Ephraim and secondarily for Manasseh. However, this duality helped a lot in tribal allocations. Since Levi (under the Old Covenant) did not receive a tribal inheritance, the twelve tribes remained with Ephraim and Manasseh counted as separate tribes. They received separate inheritances and their own territories. Thus, a 13th tribe emerged. This distribution can be seen in Numbers 10, where the western group consisted of Ephraim, Manasseh, and Benjamin, i.e., Rachel's sons.

    This tribal distribution will change according to prophecies and reflects the modified system given in Revelations. Firstly, in Revelation 7, Levi is also listed among the tribes. Why? Because the Levitical priesthood was a temporary priesthood (Heb. 11:20), which became obsolete with the establishment of the Melchizedek order. Within the framework of the New Testament, Levi returned to the tribes and, along with the other tribes and grafted in Gentiles, they can all be part of this new Melchizedek priesthood through faith. Manasseh is separate because he received a separate inheritance. Joseph is therefore represented by Ephraim, who also has the primacy between the two brothers. What is strange for many is the absence of the tribe of Dan from the list. According to prophecies, Dan merges with Ephraim, so he is also represented under Joseph! (Which, by the way, has already happened in history to some extent in practice). Furthermore, the merged Dan Ephraim gives the last organized warning of the end times (Jeremiah 4:15) before the appearance of the two witnesses.

    So, the tribes in Revelations are already listed according to the millennial (which can also be called the Melchizedek order) system. In Ezekiel 48, this has changed to a completely reversed order. Dan is one of the three tribes whose primary birthright promises only come into effect with the coming of the Messiah. (the other two are Issachar and Zebulun, who will call the peoples to Jerusalem) Dan will be the judge of the tribes. That's why Genesis 49 says: "I have waited for your salvation, O Lord!". In the new millennial tribal distribution according to Ezekiel, Dan will take his post at the eastern gate with Joseph and Benjamin, Rachel's sons, as a judge. (Then Dan will be at the forefront, and Judah will be the rear guard). The Messiah will come through this eastern gate, and this gate is the place of judgment. Also, in Genesis 10, Levi is not listed in the marching order, but he appears in the gate distribution! So, the order in Revelation reflects the Messianic system, that's why the list deviates from the temporary, better-known marching order. The tribes will be led back to the promised land in a much more massive exodus that dwarfs the Egyptian one.

  • Vidqun

    PetrW, I do think more groups and individuals were involved with the creation of Israel in Palestine. The Zionist Jews have been plotting this for a long time. And do not forget the bankers, i.e., the Rothschilds. There were quite a few fingers in that pie.

    Aqwsed, just one problem with your explanation. I'm missing the logic of your argument. Do you really think the tribes exist today? As far as I know, in times long past the Jews had been scattered to all corners of the globe. Not even the geneticists will be able to distinguish the tribes, because the Israelites had been mixed into a plethora of new combinations. Note, the geneticists are able to explain where families and individuals come from, but cannot distinguish the tribes because these don't exist anymore. So, not even God will be able to accomplish such a feat, because no registers were kept. Jews intermingled with themselves and their neighbours. The tribes are something of the past (destruction of Jerusalem, 70 CE). Closest you will come to distinguish Jewish groups, is the identification of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish ancestry. Conclusion: The tribes of Revelation are symbolic, pointing to the Israel of God as a whole, Christian gentile and Jew alike, nothing more, nothing less.

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