Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze 43 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Sea Breeze

  @Vidqun,

  Gal. 6:15-16 was where some Jewish believers were looking down on other uncircumcised believers and needed to be corrected.

  Romans 11 conclusively demonstrates that replacement theology is not biblical, and that God still has a major plan for the Jews. It has always been about the Jews "salvation is of the Jews". The entire Christian era is parenthetical to God's larger purpose, which is the final dispensation of the Millenial Rule where Jesus rules the Kingdom of David as foretold. (Read Zecariah where Israel is described in the Millenium Kingdom)

  When Christians are raptured out here and "meet the lord in the air", Israel will be front and center on the world stage. 9 Wars of the End Times outlines the most likely scenario of events on earth after the rapture.
  
  In Revelation, the Church is not seen after Chapter 3. From that point on Jesus is revealed as the Almighty to his disobedient children of Israel. The Church finally shows back up in Ch. 19
  
  

  Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [b]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

  KING OF KINGS AND
  LORD OF LORDS.

  Again, if a person subscribes to either replacement theology or amillenialism, then this is just all symbolic nonsense rather than actual history written in advance. As JW's we were subjected to Replacement Theology. Check your assumptions.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Yd0oTbR7Q&t=111s&ab_channel=GotQuestionsMinistries
  
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  Vidqun

  Sea Breeze, I checked my assumptions. Fleshly Israel, as a nation, is rejected:

  Jesus demonstrated it with a parable (Matt. 21:33-45). Jesus ended the parable by saying: “Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.” (Matt. 21:43)

  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! See, your house is left to you desolate. (Matt. 23:37, 38; Luke 13:34, 35; ESV)

  God’s covenant with them has been annulled. He gives the reason:

  10 And I took my staff Favor, and I broke it, annulling the covenant that I had made with all the peoples.
  11 So it was annulled on that day, and the sheep traders, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the LORD.
  12 Then I said to them, "If it seems good to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them." And they weighed out as my wages thirty pieces of silver.
  13 Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-- the lordly price at which I was priced by them. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD, to the potter.
  14 Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. (Zech. 11:10-14 ESV)

  As for Israel, a remnant will be saved, after the full number of the nations had come in:

  And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved. Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Rom. 9:27; 11:25 ESV)
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  Sea Breeze

  Vidqun,

  First of all, it seems that you and I agree that Israel is under a blindness right now. Like I said, after the rapture all attention will be on Israel. Their rejected King is waiting for them to repent as a nation. It will take nine wars during the endtimes before they do it. When they turn to Jesus whom they pierced and say "blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord".... only then will their Lord descend from heaven along with the saints (OT believers and Church-Age believers) and defeat the gathered enemies with the breath of his mouth.

  Many confused people will survive the GT and be allowed into the Kingdom based on how they treated the Jews .... Christ's brothers. (Sheep and Goats Judgement,aka Judgment of the Surviving Natiuons)

  During the millennium, Jesus will reign as king over Israel and all the nations of the world (Isaiah 2:4; 42:1). The world will live in peace (Isaiah 11:6–9; 32:18), Satan will be bound (Revelation 20:1–3), and, at the beginning, everyone will worship God (Isaiah 2:2–3). The purpose of the 1,000-year reign is to fulfill various promises God made to the world. Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. Jesus’ 1,000-year reign will be a time of promises kept.

  Reasons for a Millennial Age or "Dispensation" :

  To exalt Christ as King over all the earth and to usher in His kingdom (Zech 14.9, Rev 12:5). The Lord’s prayer ‘Your kingdom come … on earth’ is fully realized. Christ’s rule brings a time of universal peace and the absence of war (Isa 2:4)

  To provide a forum for the fulfilment of the unconditional covenants: Abrahamic, Davidic, Palestinian and New Covenants: Israel becomes a great nation, Christ sits on David’s throne, and God writes His Law on the hearts of both Jew and Gentile

  To bless the land: Israel becomes very fruitful as she receives abundant rain at the right times (Ezek 34:26-27, Isa 41:18)

  To restore the nation Israel to her intended place as God’s servant and witness amongst the nations (Isa 43.10). The nation will become “priests of the Lord” to administer God’s law from Jerusalem (Isa 2:3, 61:6, 66:19)

  To provide a period of perfect communion between the saints of the first resurrection and their Lord (Rev 20.4-6)

  To enable millions of Gentiles to come to know the Lord. The Lord’s people will not only be Israel, rather, they will come from many nations (Zech 2.11)

  To provide a ‘day of rest’ for nature. Not only will mankind be in near-perfect communion with the Lord, but also will nature. It is probable that imperfect aspects of nature, such a drought, locust, earthquake and flood will be removed (except when ordained as judgement on a nation). Nature will be at peace (Rom 8.21)

  Israel in the Millennium: God’s Witness and Servant

  From her birth in the book of Genesis to the present-day, Israel has struggled to fulfill her role as God’s witness and servant in the world. But in the millennium she comes into God’s full blessing, as given to her while on the Exodus journey to Canaan from Egypt. There is a beautiful song of this blessing in the book of Numbers, chapter 6 verses 24-26:

  Note that today’s true church will no longer be on earth in the flesh: she will have been taken to be with Christ at His coming (the first resurrection) and returns to earth with Christ as immortal beings (saints). So it is left to remnant Israel (that Jewish remnant from the tribulation) to be God’s witness in the world, and the spiritual blessings of millennial Israel will be the same as those of the present-day church.

  Consider:

  Millennial Israel will be the sons of God (Hos 1.10) – just like today’s true church

  Millennial Israel will be under the mediatorship, sacrifice and priesthood of the New Covenant, where God’s law is written on their hearts (Jer 31.31-34, Rom 11.26,27, Heb 8.8-12) – just like today’s true church

  Millennial Israel will be God’s witness in the world and evangelize the Gentile nations – just like today’s true church (Isa 66.18-21)

  Millennial Israel will be raised for eternity (Isa 66.22, Rom 11.22-26) – just like today’s true church will be raised at the first resurrection (1 Cor 15)

  It is surely time that the institutionalized church recognized the significance of national Israel and start to see her in her true light – as a future ‘church’ to the millennial world – the embodiment of a ‘millennial Christianity’.

  Paul makes most of this this clear in Romans 11:
  
  

  I ask then, did they (Israel) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

  13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

  17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

  19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly noth spare you either.

  22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they also do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

  All Israel Will Be Saved

  25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

  “The Deliverer will come from Zion;

  He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

  27And this is My covenant with them

  when I take away their sins.”i

  28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.

  30For just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on everyone. (Jew and Gentile)

  Sorry for the long post. But there are too many prophecies, promises and biblical framework to ignore in order to accept either amillenialism or replacement theology.
• 

  Vidqun

  Thanks for the explanation, Sea Breeze. I notice you did not touch on the Scriptures I quoted. I stick to what Jesus said. All Israel will be saved in the sense of the nations as well as individual Israelites (Gal. 3:28, 29). You put your money on the nation of Israel. You will be sorely disappointed, that is if you follow Jesus' words. Israel is lumped among the nations. She will share in their fate. The emphasis has shifted from earthly Jerusalem to Mount Zion of heavenly Jerusalem. The temple will be built on earth with living stones (1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 2 Cor. 6:16; Eph. 2:21, 22). There's no temple in heaven (Rev. 21:22). So, who will make up the earthly temple?

  A remnant of the nations: Hasel, an editor of TDOT, discusses a unique phrase “survivors of the nations” (pelîṭêhaggôyim, Isa. 45:20), which does not refer to Israelites who have escaped from the nations but to an eschatological remnant of pagan nations, who have escaped Yahweh’s judgment. “These survivors of the nations are offered salvation. The historical remnant of the nations is called to become a faithful remnant. They are to turn to Yahweh, the only God (v. 22), for only in Yahweh are righteousness and strength (v. 24). Here the remnant concept becomes universalistic, transcending nationalistic particularism.”

  Hasel continues with Joel’s theme of salvation of a remnant: “On the eschatological day of Yahweh, “everyone who calls on the name of Yahweh shall be saved (mlṭpiel); for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be escape (pelēṭâ), as Yahweh has said, and among the survivors (serîḏîm) shall be those whom Yahweh calls” (3:5[2:32]).

  “All who call on God single-heartedly and turn to him will be saved. This passage does not say that Jerusalem/Zion will be saved as one nation among others; it speaks of the deliverance of a remnant, those who are called by Yahweh and are faithful to him. Obadiah also speaks of the day of Yahweh that is near against all nations (v. 15), a day on which the whole world will be judged. Like Joel, Obadiah proclaims: “On Mount Zion there shall be escape (pelēṭâ)” (v. 17).

  “The purpose of the actions (judgment and word of revelation) and of the actors (escapees and the prophet) is to bring the people to knowledge of Yahweh. Those who know and acknowledge Yahweh have a future. In Yahweh is salvation.” TDOT, volume XI, pp. 564, 565.
  

  A Jewish remnant: Hasel continues his discussion of the remnant: “Isa. 10:20–23 is the theological locus classicus of the remnant concept. The “survivors (pelēṭâ) of the house of Jacob” and the “remnant (šeʾār) of Israel” (v. 20) are those who rely on Yahweh and do not seek refuge in political powers. They return to their mighty God and trust faithfully in him (vv. 21, 22). The juxtaposition of the deliverance of the faithful remnant and the imminent judgment that spells the end of the nation (vv. 22, 23) means that Israel will cease to exist as a nation, but God will continue to carry out his plan with a faithful remnant.

  “The promise of salvation in 37:31, 32 (= 2 Kings 19:30, 31) stresses the growth of the remnant: “The surviving remnant (pelēṭâhannišʾārâ) of the house of Judah shall again take root downward and bear fruit upward. For from Jerusalem a remnant (šeʾērîṯ) shall go out, and a band of survivors (pelēṭâ) from Mount Zion.” This historical remnant provides the basis for the eschatological remnant, which comprises those yet to come who are truly faithful to God. Yahweh will send these “survivors” to the nations, and “they shall declare my glory among the nations” (66:19, 20).” TDOT, vol. XI, p. 563.
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  Sea Breeze

  “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” - Zech. 8:23

  When has this ever happened? Or this:

  “And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.” Zech. 14: 16

  Clearly, Jesus is in Jerusalem during the Millenium Reign.

  You put your money on the nation of Israel.

  No, it's not THAT big of a deal. The nation of Israel is irrelevant to my Salvation, as I hope for yours as well.

  But, think about it. All these prophecies about Jesus, the temple, Israel as a nation.... they all presuppose the existence of a literal Israel.

  Since 1948 it is much harder to wipe away all of these prophecies as symbolic. In dramatic fulfillment of bible prophecy, after 1900 years the Nation of Israel was suddenly formed and took its place among the prominent nations of the earth. The very next day after the nation was formed, it was attacked by five Arab nations,. Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria. Against all odds, they all got their clocks cleaned.

  Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children. Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. - Is. 66: 8

  Just WOW! It was an utter miracle in dramatic modern fulfillment of bible prophecy.

  Are we supposed to accept this prophecy as literal but all the others about Israel as symbolic? Doesn't make any sense.

  You quoted:

  Jesus demonstrated it with a parable (Matt. 21:33-45). Jesus ended the parable by saying: “Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.” (Matt. 21:43)

  I say:

  And Paul addresses this in Romans 11 that even though severed, Israel can be grafted back in again:

  Romans 11: 23 - And these also, [Israel] if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

  And that is exactly what all the end times is about- after the Rapture. The nation of Israel will be thoroughly humbled so that the pride of Ephriam is demolished and Israel accepts their God whom they crucified. And, I personally simply can't wait to see Jesus honored among his people that treated him so badly the first time he came.

  Finally, Israel will never turn their back on the Lord again because the Lord will inscribe his laws on their hearts instead of on tablets of stone.

  At the end of the Thousand Year Reign, the final question of nature vs. nurture will finally be addressed. The problen isn't outside of man, it is inside. The sin nature will forever be abolished, not only for church-age believers, but for the citizens of the world as well....during the recreation.
  
  
  
  
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  Duran

  Vid - The emphasis has shifted from earthly Jerusalem to Mount Zion of heavenly Jerusalem.

  That is how I understand it to be. A person who identifies as being a Christian is also a spiritual Jew. And as far as 144k, I just say there will be chosen ones* that will have part in the first resurrection and rule with Jesus. And then there are those that will be who make up the GC.**

  * [These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb]

  ** [they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.]
  

  
  
  
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  Duran

  there will be chosen ones*
  * [These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb]

  Rather the Bible is true or not, that is what it says. So, if it is true, then there should be those. If it is not true, then there is no Lamb to follow, so there are no chosen ones to rule, etc.

  I find myself in a conundrum. I admit that I believe in Jehovah (Jehoah) and Jesus (Jehoshua), at least as far as what the Bible says. I know that believing the Bible doesn't mean it's true, but that is where I am at, that is what I believe. To not believe in the Bible, is a belief in itself. (To be an atheist, etc.) I can't prove the Bible is true, therefore prove Jehoah and Jehoshua are. I believe what I do though because I see as poof with my own eyes that man CANNOT rule themselves.

  But something that I should also be able to see for myself (we all should) if they existed, are these so-called 144k chosen ones (rather literal or symbolic).

  I would settle for just knowing the whereabouts of just one of them.

  [These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.]

  Where are ANY of these so-called chosen ones now?

  
  

  
  
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  PetrW

  @Duran

  Where are ANY of these so-called chosen ones now?
  

  In examining Revelation, I think the best answer is the question. Therefore, I answer your question with a question: are we in Revelation chapter 7 to begin the their sealing?
  
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  Vidqun

  Duran, I agree with PetrW. Question is: When is the sealing to take place? Here's a few interesting facts about the sealing process. Jesus as God’s firstborn, would have been personally sealed by his Father during his ministry on earth (John 6:27; Col. 1:15). Afterwards his intimate disciples, including Paul, would have been sealed (2 Cor. 1:21, 22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

  As to the actual sealing of the 144,000, I believe it is still future. The transition between chapters 6&7 of Revelation is introduced by the Greek phrase Καὶ μετὰτοῦτο (Rev. 7:1 Tischendorf’s New Testament, 8th edition; cf. NA28 footnote), “and after this,” “this” referring to the breaking of the sixth seal, specifically the kings of the earth and their followers, finding refuge in their underground shelters. This must still take place. It would be presumpteous to claim that you are one of the 144,000, like those in the Society do.

  What helped me to establish a foundation to build my faith is a study of the prophecies. Peter said: "Pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (2 Pet. 1:19-21 ESV)

  All are interested in the future. The angel told Daniel one of the reasons of prophecy is "to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come." (Dan. 10:14 ESV). John in Revelation was invited to view future visions: "After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." (Rev. 4:1 ESV)
  
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  Duran

  Vid: Question is: When is the sealing to take place?

  The answer is NO none have been sealed, it is to take place still future according to what is written, but that does not matter in regard to what I am saying. In order for these individuals to be sealed in the future, they have to exist prior to their sealing.

  Are you aware of ANY on earth today that can be said to be following the Lamb wherever he goes, are not defiling themselves, and they have no deceit in their mouths and without blemish? Those requirements are to be found in them prior to their sealing.