Who are the 144K Male Jewish Virgins in Revelation 7?

by Sea Breeze 43 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Sea Breeze

  But something that I should also be able to see for myself (we all should) if they existed, are these so-called 144k chosen ones (rather literal or symbolic).
  I would settle for just knowing the whereabouts of just one of them.

  I feel your pain Duran. The WT did a lot of time distortion on all of us. They have the return of Christ happening in the first part of the 20th century. (As you probably know there were previous dates too).

  As a result, they just up and declared that they themselves were the remnant of the144K. The reality is that since Jesus obviously did not return then, the 144K male Jewish virgins haven't appeared on the world scene either.

  The take away is that the 144K have nothing to do with Church-Age Christianity since the Church will be taken away. Church age believers will not go through the GT. We are not appointed to wrath:

  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ - 1 Thess, 5: 9

  The Lord has unfinished business to conduct with Israel. We are taken out of harms way because we are his bride. Jesus is not a wife beater. The 144K male Jewish virgins are part of that unfinished business. We (church-age believers) come back with him for the grand finale at Armageddon:

  "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.” 1 Thess. 3: 13

  A few years prior to this, we are taken out:

  For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the [b]archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! 18Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words - 1 Thess. 4 (Amplified Bible)
  

  The great comfort and "blessed hope" of believers is that we will not go through the GT like Israel and the rest of the unredeemed world must do. A significant percentage of people who do go through it will see more than two thirds of the population killed by the various wars of the AntiChrist. It is only to these people the words of Jesus are directed when he said "he that has endured till the end will be saved".

  But, that aint us. Our Blessed Hope is the Rapture. Or, if we die first, we will immediately be "present with the Lord when we are absent from the body". - 2 Cor. 5: 8

  The Lord's 2nd coming is really in two stages: once "in the air" and again a short time later with his saints all the way to Jerusalem where he will triumphantly enter Jerusalem through the sealed Eastern Gate.
  
  We will march with him in his Triumph. Not because we had any righteousness of our own. But simply because we chose to believe a man who came back from the dead.

  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. - Eph. 2: 8-9
  
  
  
• 

  Duran

  SB: Church age believers will not go through the GT. We are not appointed to wrath: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ - 1 Thess, 5: 9

  The wrath that (as you word it) 'Church age believes' will not be appointed to is Armageddon. All 'believers' will certainly go through the GT. That is what will determine whom a TRUE believe is. One either comes out of the GT a sheep or a goat. Goats are appointed to wrath and sheep to salvation.

  1 Thess that you cite above takes place AFTER the GT and corresponds to Matt 24:30,31.
  
• 

  Sea Breeze

  The sheep and the goats judgement is also called the judgment of unbelieving nations. It happens immediately after Jesus is enthroned in Jerusalem.

  This is strictly a military mop-up operation. In other words, it is for people who happen to find themselves alive after the GT. Both groups are confused by their judgment. Both groups (the sheep who are allowed to enter and the goats who are dismissed) appear to be confused as to why they either had a good fortune or a bad fortune.

  " When did we see you naked and clothed you, hungry and fed you" etc.... both groups ask these kinds of questions, because they don't really know why.

  The Lord answers: "to the extent that you did it to one of the least of my brothers (the Jews) you did it to me".

  Israel will be the target of the Anti-Christ during the GT and Jews will be killed in such a way that it will make the holocost seem small by comparison.

  Those who happen to survive the destruction of the GT and find themselves alive at this time, who didn't go along with the genocidal ambitions of the Anit-Christ, will be allowed to enter.

  This is NOT the hope of Church-Age Christians like the WT tries to sell. It is just a military mop-up operation to remove the final dissidents who opposed the new King of the World - the Jew, Jesus.

  The Christian hope for those alive just prior to the GT is the Rapture - the snatching away.

  Paul instructs believers to wait “for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). As his instructions pertain to “the present age” (v12), I believe this “blessed hope” includes the Rapture of the Church.

  Here is the timeline:

  
  
• 

  Vidqun

  I'm with Duran in this instance. All believers on earth at the time will have to go through the GT:

  1) Fleshly Israel has been replaced by the Israel of God (Gal. 6:15, 16).

  2) God’s people are destined to escape His wrath, but not the persecution heaped upon them by the beasts and their followers.

  3) Those caught up in the air will have no advantage over those involved in the first resurrection. Although the time frame for their ascent will differ, they will have the same reward. First group will be part of the first resurrection, after the seventh trumpet blast (Rev. 11:15, 18). The two witnesses, part of the first group, will be publically resurrected after the pouring out of the fifth plague (Rev. 9:11; 11:3, 11, 12; 16:10, 11). Second group will be taken up after the Tribulation (Matt. 24:29-31). In the same way they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes. 4:15-17 CSBO). The natural sequence of Matt. 24 also places the rapture after the tribulation (Matt. 24:30, 40, 41).

  4) Luke exempts no one alive on earth from the Tribulation. To escape it, you had to be part of it (Luke 21:34-36). Paul reasons: “Moreover, if anyone contends even in the games, he is not crowned unless he has contended according to the rules” (2 Tim. 2:5; cf. 1 Cor. 9:24, 25).

  5) Relief for Christians will only come after the Tribulation. This Paul confirms: “This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels” (2 Thes. 1:6, 7).

  6) Only the Philadelphian Christians are allowed to escape “the hour of test.” This does not refer to the Great Tribulation, but a unique test they had to endure (Rev. 3:10; cf. Matt. 24:21).
  
• 

  Duran

  SB: The Christian hope for those alive just prior to the GT is the Rapture - the snatching away.

  If that is what you think and you believe that chart, then there is perhaps nothing I can say to correct your thinking, but that is not what the Bible states. Jesus is said to have a 2nd coming and it is AFTER the GT. This does not allow for him to come BEFORE the GT.
• 

  Sea Breeze

  @ Duran,

  If that is what you think...

  Of course the 2nd Coming is after the GT....that's why the GT ends. But before that, this happens:

  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thess. 4: 17
  
  Do you not believe this?

  A literal reading of this scripture certainly agrees with the scripture that says when Jesus returns he will have his saints with him. How could he have them with him if they were not previously caught up to Heaven to meet him there?

  He returns "with all His saints" (1 Th. 3:13)
  
  What other way could this possibly be understood?
• 

  Duran

  A literal reading of this scripture certainly agrees with the scripture that says when Jesus returns he will have his saints with him. He returns "with all His saints" (1 Th. 3:13) What other way could this possibly be understood?

  [May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.]
  

  No mention of him coming with his saints there, it is speaking to his saints. He comes with his angels and they gather his saints (chosen).

  [If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.]
  

  [And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels,]

  [For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.]

  [And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.]
• 

  Sea Breeze

  • I'm with Duran in this instance. All believers on earth at the time will have to go through the GT:

    There is certainly no shortage of Christians who believe this. But it is not the dominant Evangelical view, nor of prophecy scholars.

    1) Fleshly Israel has been replaced by the Israel of God (Gal. 6:15, 16).

    And scripture says that if they abandon their unbelief. God can graft them in again. Remember? Also, Romans 11: 1 "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin."
    
    Clearly there is a path in scripture that supports the many other references about a literal Israel in the Millenium.

    2) God’s people are destined to escape His wrath, but not the persecution heaped upon them by the beasts and their followers.

    That is not exactly what scripture says. It says we are not appointed to wrath (period). Jesus is not a wife-beater.

    3) Those caught up in the air will have no advantage over those involved in the first resurrection. Although the time frame for their ascent will differ,

    The first resurrection is virtually simultanous with the rapture:

    For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death]. 16For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the [b]archangel and with the [blast of the] trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain [on the earth] will simultaneously be caught up (raptured) together with them [the resurrected ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord! - 1 Thess. 1: 15 (Amplified Bible)
    

    This is the same event as most bible scholars agree.

    First group will be part of the first resurrection, after the seventh trumpet blast (Rev. 11:15, 18). The two witnesses, part of the first group, will be publically resurrected after the pouring out of the fifth plague (Rev. 9:11; 11:3, 11, 12; 16:10, 11). Second group will be taken up after the Tribulation (Matt. 24:29-31). In the same way they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thes. 4:15-17 CSBO).
    The natural sequence of Matt. 24 also places the rapture after the tribulation (Matt. 24:30, 40, 41).

    Response

    Jesus makes two very important statements that help us understand He is referring to the Second Coming of Christ in Matthew 24: 25-31 and not the Rapture.

    First, He says that the world will mourn when they see Him in the clouds. This event is described in Zechariah 12:12. Christians will not be mourning at the rapture, but people will be mourning when they see Christ coming at the battle of Armageddon. Second, Christ says that the Son of Man will come on the clouds with power and great glory. Zechariah 14:1-6 describes His coming at the battle of Armageddon and He does come in great power, splitting the Mount of Olives and defeating the nations of the world.

    Verse 31 does not describe judgment, but the gathering of Christians in preparation for Christ’s millennial kingdom. This verse summarizes the sheep and goat judgment which He later describes in greater detail in Matthew 25:31-46. The sheep and goat judgment determines who will be allowed to enter Christ’s millennial kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6). For more information about the sheep and goat judgment visit, “When and where does the Goat and Sheep judgment occur?”

    Conclusion:

    Therefore, Matthew 24:15-29 describes the events that will occur from the middle of the tribulation to the end of the tribulation (see v. 15 and 29). This means that Christ’ second coming occurs next, which is verses 30 and 31.

    Matthew 24:30-31 does not describe the rapture. There are three reasons verses 29-31 do not describe the rapture.

    First, in verse 30 Jesus says that the nations will mourn His coming. But at the rapture Christians will be caught up and meet Christ in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 teaches us that at the rapture believers will obtain imperishable bodies in a twinkling of an eye. That is, the rapture will in a twinkly of an eye. So Christ will not be seen by the non-Christian world. They will not see Him. Surely, believers will not mourn when they see Him.

    Second, at the second coming of Christ, He brings the saints of the ages with Him (Zechariah 14:5; Revelation 19:11-16). After the second coming, Matthew 25:31-46 teaches us that the Goat and Sheep Judgment or the Judgment of the Nations will occur next. At this time Christ gathers all of the mortal saints and unbelievers from around the world together for the Goat and Sheep Judgment. Then He sends the saints into the millennial kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and the unbelievers are sent to eternal punishment (Matthew 25:41-46). Matthew 25:30-31 refers to Christ’s second coming and the Goat and Sheep Judgment. It is not about the rapture.

    The third reason Matthew 24:30-31 is not the rapture is that the “sign of the Son of Man” refers to the second coming of Christ (Daniel 7:13; Revelation 1:7). Also, at the second coming, He descends from heaven with a sword and heavenly armies ready to fight at the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19:11-21). Additionally, verse 31 refers to the Sheep and Goat Judgment or the Judgment of the Nations.

    So, Matthew 24:30-31 describes the second coming of Christ and not the rapture. The study “Does two men in the field, one taken and one left refer to the rapture?” describes another passage that people sometimes mistakenly believe refers to the rapture.

    Will address your other points later. Thanks for all your fine points. I haven't had this much exercise since I got cornered at lunch with a Five Point Calvinist. We ended up talking till dinner and had to order again.
• 

  Sea Breeze

  @ Duran
  
  

  I believe there are sound reasons that holy ones are God’s holy people.... aka "saints"

  First, when Paul uses the Greek word for holy ones (hagios) to refer to beings, he always refers to holy people. Of Paul’s 76 uses of this word, 40 uses refer to people (including 1 Thessalonians 3:13), typically translated saints.2

  Second, when writing to the Thessalonians and referring to angels who accompany Christ for judgment, Paul unambiguously refers to them as angels (Greek, angelos) in 2 Thessalonians 1:7. He even distinguishes holy ones from angels by referring to holy ones as human believers in this same passage (2 Thessalonians 1:10, “all who have believed”; cf. 1:7–10).

  Third, the identity of holy ones as people is more fitting than angels in the context of 1 Thessalonians 3:11–13. Paul prays for his readers to grow spiritually so that they will be perfected in holiness with all of the holy ones at their judgment, and this prayer prepares his readers for admonitions on holiness in the next two chapters (cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:3, 4, 7, 8; 5:23, 26). The idea is something like, “I pray that you grow so that God will perfect you in holiness with all of the holy ones in the future, a holiness that you should be living out right now.”

  Fourth, if one holds that the rapture of the saints takes place before the final descent of Jesus (with the day of the Lord in between; cf. 1 Thessalonians 1:9–10; 5:2–4, 9), then this verse fittingly speaks of the glorification and positive judgment of God’s holy people before the Father and Son (cf. Rom 14:10; 2 Cor 5:10), a judgment that takes place in heaven after the rapture. The term coming (Greek, parousia) refers to a complex event that includes the rapture of the saints, the day of the Lord, and the final descent of Jesus, in that order (cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:14–17; 5:2–4; 2 Thessalonians 2:8).

  This article presents a fair treatment of both sides by David Huffstutler.
• 

  Duran

  That is not exactly what scripture says. It says we are not appointed to wrath (period). Jesus is not a wife-beater.

  I believe there are sound reasons that holy ones are God’s holy people.... aka "saints" First, when Paul uses the Greek word for holy ones (hagios) to refer to beings, he always refers to holy people.

  You are not wrong in saying that the saints (chosen ones) are referred to as 'holy ones' But also the angels are referred to as being 'holy'. At 1 Thessalonians 3:13, ALL HIS HOLY ONES would include his chosen and angels. When Jesus comes (AFTER the GT) he does so with his angels, and they (the angels) gather the chosen ones. Therefore, ALL holy ones will be together when Jesus comes. And again, the wrath that is said not to be appointed to is speaking about Armageddon, not the GT.

  [For whoever becomes ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will also be ashamed of him when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”]

  [And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.]

  [so that he may make your hearts firm, blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the presence of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.]

  [This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels]
  

  [“For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. “Then people will hand you over to tribulation]

  [It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months.] [It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.] [If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]