Beliefs About What Caused the Universe

by Perry 160 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Perry

  
  

  an hour ago

  xainhippe,
  As previously discussed, the fact that the universe is expanding, is strong evidence (with much scientific support) that not only did the universe have a beginning, but that an Agent or first cause existing outside of the space time universe must have acted upon our universe.

  
  No it isn't.

  
  

  Then you are left with only magic - our space time universe beginning from nothing.

  And if true, Why don't we see cereal boxes appearing from nothing? Or maybe vanilla ice cream? Since, something from nothing has never been observed, why would you adopt this as something logical?

  Believing in Materialism is ultimately belief in nothing more than make-believe. 

  
  
• 

  TheWonderofYou

  Was is not sometimes intuition instead of logical conclusions that lead to new discoveries? Perhaps this matter behaves likewise. As with einstein whose intution and playing through of scenarios lead him to new discoveries that are only attested nowadays, so much later.   

  Greetings.
• 

  Cornbread

  I find it very disingenuous for Perry and other creationists to harp on the supposed causality of the singularity at the beginning of the universe as being proof of the angry shepherd God of the Hebrews. It's one mighty anthropocentric leap of reasoning and quite frankly it's ridiculous.

  We are infinitesimal specks in the grand scheme of the cosmos. Debate the origins of the Universe if you want but don't try to convince me there's some supernatural being who gets upset if you masturbate.
• 

  Cornbread

  I also find it hilarious that Perry is getting bent out of shape over the preposterous notion of magic cereal boxes appearing out of thin air when he unquestioningly rejects evolution. Species weren't "magicked" into existence either, bud.

  Evolution is a slam-dunk theory, just like gravity. We're just unsure of the .mechanisms involved.
• 

  prologos

  C" "--We're just unsure of the .mechanisms involved. and it is this ongoing uncertainty that opens the way to the thinking, that something not as uncertain as us was in a remote way involved in the beginning, the origin, the one and only  un-caused cause.
• 

  Cornbread

  Like I said, debate causality and the big bang all you want, we know it happened.

  Don't conflate that with proof of the existence of the god of the Bible.
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  Xanthippe

  Believing in Materialism is ultimately belief in nothing more than make-believe.

  Perry I don't know where the universe came from. When my husband did his physics degree he said virtual particles pop in and out of existence but we don't know where they come from. He said there is no such thing as common sense with quantum field theory, it is beyond our experience to always predict the surprising outcome.
  

  I don't believe the universe came about by magic but I do think if those humans who do find out in the future could get in a time machine now and tell us the answers it would seem like magic. Just as my iPad would seem like magic a couple of hundred years ago.

  It's all relative. 😏
• 

  Anders Andersen

  Then you are left with only magic - a God beginning from nothing, or with no beginning at all.
  

  And if true, Why don't we see cereal boxes appearing from nothing? Or maybe vanilla ice cream? Since, God or anything else without beginning has never been observed, why would you adopt this as something logical?
  

  Believing in God is ultimately belief in nothing more than make-believe.
• 

  Terry

  THOUGHT EXPERIMENT:

  Imagine 2 Universes.

  The 1st contains absolutely NOTHING at all. Never and always nothing.

  The 2nd contains something and is, in fact, THIS universe you and I exist inside.

  In the 1st Universe consisting of nothing, who would ask the question, "Why is there nothing rather than something?"

  In the 2nd Universe consisting of something, who would ask the same question?

  We are forced to conclude, only in the 2nd universe could anyone exist to ask the question about BOTH.

  
  ________
  What is a Universe but a set or category inclusive of "ALL"?

  (ALL of something vs. ALL of nothing.)

  Perry tells us that God exists OUTSIDE of the universe and the spacetime continuum.
  If a Universe is ALL there is, how can anybody or anything exist outside?
  

  The answer is simple. Perry is forced to destroy the meaning of Universe so he can win by

  inserting God.
  It's like adding additional time to the countdown clock when your team is tied.
  AD HOC Fallacy allows you to make up on the spot whatever you need to win!

  We pause. . .

  In a Universe in which nothing exists, God is inserted from "outside" of everything (which doesn't exist.)
  God proceeds to create something out of-----WAIT! Out of what?
  
  EX NIHILO (Out of Nothing)
  
  Pulling a cosmic rabbit out of a non-existing hat is pure magic.

  To be consistent, we either have to allow God to already exist WITHOUT Himself have a "cause", or

  we have to allow the Universe of Something to exist without having a Creator.
  
  Which is the simplest answer?
  1. An already existing something without an even more complex living Being causing it from nothing?

  2. A non-existing nothing with an "outside" existing Supreme Being ready to step in and put a created something into that "nothing"?

  __________________
  
  1. BEFORE the Universe, this "GOD" wasn't a creator because nothing had been created.

  2. BEFORE the Universe, this "GOD" was alone, therefore, He wasn't even SUPREME because you have to ask, "Superior to what or who?"

  3. BEFORE the Universe, this "GOD" had no thoughts about anything because there was no anything.
  A mind without thoughts of something isn't really conscious.
  An unconscious God isn't much of a God at all.
• 

  redvip2000

  What god of common sense would look down at earth-dwelling creatures and sit by while they bicker and argue about the beginnings of the universe as evidence that god exists?

  
  Is this god so stupidly inoperative that he will not move one hair of his ass to finally to put an end to the discussion and provide indisputable proof that he exists? What else exactly does he have to do? He already leisurely hangs around in inertia while scores of humans desperately beg for help that never comes.
  

  
  If you consider the fact that by providing indisputable evidence that he exists, he would convert a massive amount of humans to becoming believers, it is simply inconceivable that this being exists. No reasonable god would behave in this foolish and irresponsible manner.