Beliefs About What Caused the Universe
Occam's razor precludes this argument. Of the two explanations: a) we can calculate the 14 billion year age of the universe thanks to measurements using the laws of nature or b) some capricious deity arranged for everything in the universe to only *look* that way but really popped everything into existence last Thursday, the more likely scenario is a).
Once you accept a cause beyond our space/time universe Occams razon doesn't apply. The simplest explanation is that space and time were manipulated as opposed to waiting around for 14 billion years.
Think of when you are looking for a particular scene in a movie that you wish to replay to show someone. You can certainly start from the beginning and make your guest wait an hour until the scene emerges, or you could just hit the Fast Forward button.Which is the simplest course of action, assuming the technology?
P: "I do find it interesting that only since Einstein have we been thinking of space and time as a woven fabric. The bible likened it to a fabric back in the "bronze age":
actually, his analogy was more like rubber sheet, for gravity, or the expanding space of the universe as the surface of a pumping up balloon. (ask Tony, spandex becomes a bible topic only now) Isaiah 40: stretch the heavens out like a tent-". a fixed unfolding fabric, unlike the changing of size, and movement through time of the relativity equations.
P: "Some of the folks here are just having a hard time imagining an existence of any kind without time. Who says there was no time before the universe? Just because space and it's content is expanding through time at varying rates for ~14 billion earth years, getting bigger in the process, does not mean that the 4st dimension aka "time" did not exist prior to the big bang acceleration. You are confusing time with movement through time.
sorry, wrong post transferred, I had mixed up my concerns of cosmic = genesis and comic= wt generation ideas.
"Once you accept a cause beyond our space/time universe Occams razon doesn't apply. The simplest explanation is that space and time were manipulated as opposed to waiting around for 14 billion years." - Perry
Why doesn't Occams Razor apply? Manipulated by what though? If you assume a conscious body then you have not chosen the simplest explanation and have explained nothing yet again and have left yourself with even more to explain than you began with...
Perry quote: "--The simplest explanation is that space and time were manipulated --" there is no basis for that assertion.
WsIcm: "-- Why doesn't Occams Razor apply? because a supposed eternal, unchanging entity, not moving through time, does not need to shave.
Again I ask the deists here to explain how "universe has beginning" = "jealous bearded sky man" with a fetish for bronze-age nomads.
Why not Quetzalcoatl or Brahma?
And Perry, "The simplest explanation is that space and time were manipulated as opposed to waiting around for 14 billion years."
I don't think you have a grasp on what the term "simplest" means, although your argument betrays your own simplicity of mind.
If you assume a conscious body then you have not chosen the simplest explanation
If you were walking in the woods and found a large wooden carved artwork in the shape of a peacock with some doodle bugs crawling around on it. What would be the simplest explanation to explain its existence?
A. The unconscious doodle bugs did it?
B. A conscious person did it?
The doodle bugs are far simpler than a man, but are not the simplest explanation.
Cb: "--Again I ask the deists here to explain how "universe has beginning" -- Deists are not Theists. This deist trusts in science to reach beyond the beginning condition to set the parameters for the action there, and thereby define the creator by his/her works. A theist would lean toward Quexx ; Brxx ; Thxx ; J&J&S,--- and would certainly a priori be proven wrong. and, please in this discussion, do not start publicly categorising people's minds, that is not the subject, i