"Special Meeting" on Sunday 4/27/03. How special?

by robhic 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Wow, it sounds like the "Special Talk" I went to was the most shocking one of all, I had never heard this bold of statements at a Kingdom Hall before:

  I went to the "Special Talk" on Sunday, April 27th, 2003!

  By UnDisfellowshipped ([email protected]) I went to the "Special Talk" intentionally (gasp), in order to see what they are saying about the United Nations now, especially after the new 6-01-2003 Watchtower Article.

  Below are the interesting QUOTES from the "Special Talk" (to be honest, I was somewhat shocked to see how many threats about being destroyed were in the Talk):

  "Has Babylon's Judgment Hour Arrived?" (Special Talk, April 27th, 2003)

  First, in the prayer, the Brother asked Jehovah to make sure that this Special Talk "infiltrates" everyone's hearts.

  Then, the Brother who was giving the Special Talk started his Talk.

  There was absolutely NO mention of the United Nations or the Scarlet-Colored Wild Beast in the entire Talk about Babylon being destroyed!

  (For more information on the "New Light on the U.N.", please go to: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/50250/1.ashx)

  He quoted from the "Revelation - Its Grand Climax At Hand!" Book twice during the Talk.

  Now, the QUOTES BEGIN (Quotes from the Special Talk are in Bold. Comments that are particularly interesting are in Bold Red):

  At the beginning of his Talk, the Brother said: "Babylon the Great will be destroyed by Political Powers".

  Then, later in the Talk, he said that "Jehovah was going to send Jesus and the angels, and Jesus and the angels would DIRECTLY destroy Babylon the Great."

  Then, later, he said "Jehovah is going to send Jesus and the angels to wipe the filthiness of Babylon off the face of the earth!"

  (UNDISFELLOWSHIPPED'S COMMENT: That seems very interesting -- it sounds like they may be teaching "New Light" that Babylon will be destroyed directly by Jesus and the angels, and NOT by the United Nations!)

  "Babylon the Great is made up of all religions on earth, EXCEPT for Jehovah's Witnesses."

  "There is a giant chasm between Babylon the Great and the Jehovah's Witnesses."

  "Merchants who buy and sell with Babylon will be upset when Babylon is destroyed because they will say 'Who will buy or sell our stuff now?' "

  "Babylon the Great will do anything for money, Babylon has absolutely no morals at all -- she is a harlot -- she is the madam of all harlots!"

  (UNDISFELLOWSHIPPED'S COMMENT: Please visit this Thread for some interesting information about Jehovah's Witnesses buying and selling Buildings with Babylon the Great: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/49887/1.ashx)

  "The Anointed Ones and the Great Crowd will be very happy and joyful when Babylon the Great is destroyed!"

  "The imminent destruction of Babylon is beautiful!"

  "Babylon has absolutely no cleanliness at all!"

  "Babylon is guilty for all of the blood that has ever been shed on the entire earth -- from Abel all the way to the modern-day people!"

  "Babylon the Great has made their Churches into Voting Places and Places to Organize Army Troops for so-called 'Holy Wars'!"

  (UNDISFELLOWSHIPPED'S COMMENT: According to the November 1, 1999 Watchtower, it is now "Up to your conscience" for Jehovah's Witnesses to Vote in Political Elections)

  "Every remnant and spec of Babylon will be destroyed because she has told terrible lies about God and has caused horrible injustices to be done on earth."

  "Babylon holds fast to the traditions of men and doesn't care at all about truth."

  "Babylon tells people 'Trust me, trust me, trust me -- give me your money and I will take care of your salvation.' "

  "Babylon's main teachings are all LIES, LIES, LIES -- the Trinity, Hellfire, and the immortal soul -- ALL LIES!"

  The Brother then says he is Quoting from "Revelation Book", Page 237, and then says "The Catholic Church supported and helped Hitler and the Nazis, and the Catholic Church allowed the Holocaust to happen!"

  "It is a Bible fact that the Last Days began in 1914!"

  "Eve taught Cain to be a wicked, evil person!"

  "The Judgment of Babylon is IMMINENT!"

  "WE, yes WE are going to see the FULFILLMENT of the destruction of the 'Man of Lawlessness'!"

  "Because of world events, such as the War in Iraq, the Governing Body is now saying that Babylon the Great is in the 'Target Zone' for IMMINENT destruction!"

  "How can you get out and stay out of the 'Target Zone' of Babylon the Great? YOU MUST HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH BABYLON THE GREAT!"

  "You do not even have to be a member of Babylon in order to be bloodguilty and be in the 'Target Zone'. YOU MUST BECOME A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS IN ORDER TO BE FREE FROM BLOODGUILT!"

  "People are leaving Babylon because they see so much hypocrisy!"

  "Jesus won't execute us if we stay in 'The Truth'. As long as we stay in 'The Truth' we are safe!"

  "There are a lot of things people are scared about now, there's SARS, AIDS, Anthrax, Wars -- but Jehovah's Witnesses are not scared of any of that. BUT THIS SHOULD SCARE THE DAYLIGHTS OUT OF EVERYONE -- JESUS CHRIST IS GOING TO DESTROY EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON EARTH WHO IS NOT IN THE WATCHTOWER ORGANIZATION!"

  (UNDISFELLOWSHIPPED'S COMMENT: There goes China and most of the Muslim Countries who have NEVER gotten to hear from the Jehovah's Witnesses!)

  "Jehovah's Witnesses MUST NOT get curious about any of the things that are going on outside of the Watchtower Organization right now."

  "All Jehovah's Witnesses need more time to think."

  "Having an independant attitude could cost you your life! Always trying to think about what 'rights' you have, especially in the Western World, could cost you your life!"

  "Token Field Service is NOT acceptable to Jehovah God -- Jehovah will NOT accept you if you squeeze in Field Service between the things that you have to do in life."

  "After Babylon goes down, IMMEDIATELY BILLIONS OF PEOPLE WILL BE DESTROYED BY JESUS CHRIST! Jehovah's Witnesses should REJOICE!"

  "Jehovah's Witnesses should AVOID being sentimental toward the BILLIONS of worldly people who are going to be destroyed!"

  "Being sentimental could cost you your life!"

  "Jehovah's Witnesses should AVOID being too tolerant of worldly people -- that could cost you your life!"

  "Toleration can be used to allow wicked acts to be justified, like homosexuality!"

  "I do not know if weak faith will save you -- you must strengthen your faith NOW!"
• 

  voltaire

  Undisfellowshipped,

  Thank you for the summary. You're like one of those guys who unclogs the septic tank. You've waded through all the sh** so we don't have to. It's nice to know that the JWs are still the same. I think I've heard that talk a hundred times.

  Ron
• 

  NeonMadman

  Ah, yes. The "Special Talk". "Special," because it's not part of the boring rotation of 125 talks or so that are given over and over again year after year. Of course, after it's given, it gets added to the boring rotation so that it, too, can be given over and over again...

  It amazes me how they talk of Christendom having a "spiritual famine." At least, if you go to most churches, you'll hear a sermon that the pastor prepared just for that occasion, with his specific congregation in mind. Not some canned presentation that they've already heard a dozen times before.
• 

  amac

  Wow, UnDFed! I've never heard statements quite that bold from the platform. He is going to destroy every single person outside of the WT organization? That is strong! How do you remember all these quotes, was this all from memory, notes or a recorder? Just curious how accurate they are (my memory's so bad that I usually assume everyone else's is as well.)
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  I took notes, and wrote down all the most bold statements that were made. I was trying to keep up, but the Speaker was blurting out bold statements so fast, I probably missed some of his interesting statements.

  I definitely should have taken a Recorder with me, but I was not expecting to hear anything as bold as I heard.
• 

  Eyebrow2

  UNDISFELLOWSHIPPED'S COMMENT: According to the November 1, 1999 Watchtower, it is now "Up to your conscience" for Jehovah's Witnesses to Vote in Political Elections)

  Really??? hmmmm that is interesting...will have to ask my mom about that one
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Eyebrow2,

  Here is the Article on Voting:

  The Watchtower, November 1, 1999 Issue, Pages 28-29:

  Questions From Readers

  How do Jehovah’s Witnesses view voting?

  There are clear principles set out in the Bible that enable servants of God to take a proper view of this matter. However, there appears to be no principle against the practice of voting itself. For example, there is no reason why a board of directors should not take a vote in order to arrive at decisions affecting their corporation. Congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses often make decisions about meeting times and the use of congregation funds by voting with a show of hands.

  What, though, of voting in political elections? Of course, in some democratic lands, as many as 50 percent of the population do not turn out to vote on election day. As for Jehovah’s Witnesses, they do not interfere with the right of others to vote; neither do they in any way campaign against political elections. They respect and cooperate with the authorities who are duly elected in such elections. (Romans 13:1-7) As to whether they will personally vote for someone running in an election, each one of Jehovah’s Witnesses makes a decision based on his Bible-trained conscience and an understanding of his responsibility to God and to the State. (Matthew 22:21; 1 Peter 3:16) In making this personal decision, the Witnesses consider a number of factors.

  First, Jesus Christ said of his followers: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” (John 17:14) Jehovah’s Witnesses take this principle seriously. Being “no part of the world,” they are neutral in the political affairs of the world.—John 18:36.

  Second, the apostle Paul referred to himself as an “ambassador” representing Christ to the people of his day. (Ephesians 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:20) Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Christ Jesus is now the enthroned King of God’s heavenly Kingdom, and they, like ambassadors, must announce this to the nations. (Matthew 24:14; Revelation 11:15) Ambassadors are expected to be neutral and not to interfere in the internal affairs of the countries to which they are sent. As representatives of God’s heavenly Kingdom, Jehovah’s Witnesses feel a similar obligation not to interfere in the politics of the countries where they reside.

  A third factor to consider is that those who have a part in voting a person into office may become responsible for what he does. (Compare 1 Timothy 5:22, The New English Bible.) Christians have to consider carefully whether they want to shoulder that responsibility.

  Fourth, Jehovah’s Witnesses greatly value their Christian unity. (Colossians 3:14) When religions get involved in politics, the result is often division among their members. In imitation of Jesus Christ, Jehovah’s Witnesses avoid becoming involved in politics and thus maintain their Christian unity.—Matthew 12:25; John 6:15; 18:36, 37.

  Fifth and finally, their keeping out of politics gives Jehovah’s Witnesses freeness of speech to approach people of all political persuasions with the important message of the Kingdom.—Hebrews 10:35.

  In view of the Scriptural principles outlined above, in many lands Jehovah’s Witnesses make a personal decision not to vote in political elections, and their freedom to make that decision is supported by the law of the land. What, though, if the law requires citizens to vote? In such a case, each Witness is responsible to make a conscientious, Bible-based decision about how to handle the situation. If someone decides to go to the polling booth, that is his decision. What he does in the polling booth is between him and his Creator.

  The November 15, 1950, issue of The Watchtower, on pages 445 and 446, said: “Where Caesar makes it compulsory for citizens to vote . . . [Witnesses] can go to the polls and enter the voting booths. It is here that they are called upon to mark the ballot or write in what they stand for. The voters do what they will with their ballots. So here in the presence of God is where his witnesses must act in harmony with his commandments and in accordance with their faith. It is not our responsibility to instruct them what to do with the ballot.”

  What if a Christian woman’s unbelieving husband insists that she present herself to vote? Well, she is subject to her husband, just as Christians are subject to the superior authorities. (Ephesians 5:22; 1 Peter 2:13-17) If she obeys her husband and goes to the polling booth, that is her personal decision. No one should criticize her.—Compare Romans 14:4.

  What of a country where voting is not mandated by law but feelings run high against those who do not go to the voting booth—perhaps they are exposed to physical danger? Or what if individuals, while not legally obliged to vote, are severely penalized in some way if they do not go to the polling booth? In these and similar situations, a Christian has to make his own decision. “Each one will carry his own load.”—Galatians 6:5.

  There may be people who are stumbled when they observe that during an election in their country, some Witnesses of Jehovah go to the polling booth and others do not. They may say, ‘Jehovah’s Witnesses are not consistent.’ People should recognize, though, that in matters of individual conscience such as this, each Christian has to make his own decision before Jehovah God.—Romans 14:12.

  Whatever personal decisions Jehovah’s Witnesses make in the face of different situations, they take care to preserve their Christian neutrality and freeness of speech. In all things, they rely on Jehovah God to strengthen them, give them wisdom, and help them avoid compromising their faith in any way. Thus they show confidence in the words of the psalmist: “You are my crag and my stronghold; and for the sake of your name you will lead me and conduct me.”—Psalm 31:3.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Also, supposedly, Military Service is a "Personal Decision" for Jehovah's Witnesses now:

  The Watchtower, May 1, 1996 Issue, Pages 18-20:

  Compulsory Military Service

  11 Another demand made by Caesar in some countries is compulsory military service. In the 20th century, this arrangement has been instituted by most nations in times of war and by some in times of peace as well. In France this obligation was for many years called blood tax, meaning that every young man had to be willing to lay down his life for the State. Is this something that those dedicated to Jehovah can conscientiously render? How did the first-century Christians view this matter?

  12 While the earliest Christians endeavored to be good citizens, their faith prevented them from taking the life of another or from sacrificing their own lives for the State. The Encyclopedia of Religion states: “The early church fathers, including Tertullian and Origen, affirmed that Christians were constrained from taking human life, a principle that prevented them from participating in the Roman army.” In his book The Early Church and the World, Professor C. J. Cadoux writes: “Up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least [161-180 C.E.], no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism.”

  13 Why do members of the churches of Christendom not view things this way today? Because of a radical change that took place in the fourth century. The Catholic work A History of the Christian Councils explains: “Many Christians, . . . under the pagan emperors, had religious scruples with regard to military service, and positively refused to take arms, or else deserted. The Synod [of Arles, held in 314 C.E.], in considering the changes introduced by Constantine, set forth the obligation that Christians have to serve in war, . . . because the Church is at peace (in pace) under a prince friendly to Christians.” As a result of this abandonment of Jesus’ teachings, from that time until now, the clergy of Christendom have encouraged their flocks to serve in the armies of the nations, although some individuals have taken a stand as conscientious objectors.

  14 Are Christians today obliged to follow the majority in this matter? No. If a dedicated, baptized Christian lives in a country where exemption from military service is granted to ministers of religion, he may avail himself of this provision, for he is in fact a minister. (2 Timothy 4:5) A number of countries, including the United States and Australia, have granted such exemption even in wartime. And during peacetime, in many lands that maintain compulsory military service, Jehovah’s Witnesses, as ministers of religion, are granted exemption. Thus they can continue helping the people by their public service.

  15 What, though, if the Christian lives in a land where exemption is not granted to ministers of religion? Then he will have to make a personal decision following his Bible-trained conscience. (Galatians 6:5) While taking the authority of Caesar into account, he will weigh carefully what he owes to Jehovah. (Psalm 36:9; 116:12-14; Acts 17:28) The Christian will remember that the mark of a true Christian is love for all his fellow believers, even those who live in other lands or those belonging to other tribes. (John 13:34, 35; 1 Peter 2:17) Further, he will not forget the Scriptural principles found in texts such as Isaiah 2:2-4; Matthew 26:52; Romans 12:18; 14:19; 2 Corinthians 10:4; and Hebrews 12:14.

  Civilian Service

  16 However, there are lands where the State, while not allowing exemption for ministers of religion, nevertheless acknowledges that some individuals may object to military service. Many of these lands make provision for such conscientious individuals not to be forced into military service. In some places a required civilian service, such as useful work in the community, is regarded as nonmilitary national service. Could a dedicated Christian undertake such service? Here again, a dedicated, baptized Christian would have to make his own decision on the basis of his Bible-trained conscience.

  17 It seems that compulsory service was practiced in Bible times. One history book states: “In addition to the taxes and dues exacted from the inhabitants of Judea, there was also a corvée [unpaid labor exacted by public authorities]. This was an ancient institution in the East, which the Hellenistic and Roman authorities continued to maintain. . . . The New Testament, too, cites examples of corvée in Judea, showing how widespread it was. In accordance with this custom, the soldiers pressed Simon of Cyrene into carrying Jesus’ cross [torture stake] (Matthew 5:41; 27:32; Mark 15:21; Luke 23:26).”

  18 Similarly, citizens in some countries today are required by the State or by local authorities to participate in various forms of community service. Sometimes this is for a specific task, such as digging wells or building roads; sometimes it is on a regular basis, such as weekly participation in cleaning up roads, schools, or hospitals. Where such civilian service is for the good of the community and is not connected with false religion or is not in some other way objectionable to the consciences of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they have often complied. (1 Peter 2:13-15) This has usually resulted in an excellent witness and has sometimes silenced those who falsely accuse the Witnesses of being antigovernment.—Compare Matthew 10:18.

  19 What, though, if the State requires a Christian for a period of time to perform civilian service that is a part of national service under a civilian administration? Here again, Christians must make their own decision based on an informed conscience. “We shall all stand before the judgment seat of God.” (Romans 14:10) Christians faced with a requirement of Caesar should prayerfully study the matter and meditate on it. It may also be wise to talk the matter over with mature Christians in the congregation. After this a personal decision must be made.—Proverbs 2:1-5; Philippians 4:5.

  20 While engaged in such research, Christians would consider a number of Bible principles. Paul said that we must “be obedient to governments and authorities as rulers, . . . be ready for every good work . . . be reasonable, exhibiting all mildness toward all men.” (Titus 3:1, 2) At the same time, Christians would do well to examine the proposed civilian work. If they accept it, will they be able to maintain Christian neutrality? (Micah 4:3, 5; John 17:16) Would it involve them with some false religion? (Revelation 18:4, 20, 21) Would performing it prevent or unreasonably limit them from fulfilling their Christian responsibilities? (Matthew 24:14; Hebrews 10:24, 25) On the other hand, would they be able to continue to make spiritual progress, perhaps even sharing in the full-time ministry while performing the required service?—Hebrews 6:11, 12.

  21 What if the Christian’s honest answers to such questions lead him to conclude that the national civilian service is a “good work” that he can perform in obedience to the authorities? That is his decision before Jehovah. Appointed elders and others should fully respect the conscience of the brother and continue to regard him as a Christian in good standing. If, however, a Christian feels that he cannot perform this civilian service, his position should also be respected. He too remains in good standing and should receive loving support.—1 Corinthians 10:29; 2 Corinthians 1:24; 1 Peter 3:16.

  22 As Christians we will not cease to render “to him who calls for honor, such honor.” (Romans 13:7) We will respect good order and seek to be peaceful, law-abiding citizens. (Psalm 34:14) We may even pray “concerning kings and all those who are in high station” when these men are called upon to make decisions that affect our Christian life and work. As a result of our paying back Caesar’s things to Caesar, we hope that “we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness.” (1 Timothy 2:1, 2) Above all, we will continue to preach the good news of the Kingdom as mankind’s only hope, conscientiously paying back God’s things to God.
  ____________________________________________

  The Watchtower, July 15, 1996 Issue, Pages 19-20:

  Unity and Personal Decisions

  15 God made us free moral agents with the privilege and responsibility to make personal decisions. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20; Galatians 6:5) Yet, we are able to maintain our unity because we comply with Bible laws and principles. We take them into account when making personal decisions. (Acts 5:29; 1 John 5:3) Suppose a question arises concerning neutrality. We can make an informed personal decision by remembering that we are “no part of the world” and that we have ‘beaten our swords into plowshares.’ (John 17:16; Isaiah 2:2-4) Similarly, when we must make a personal decision regarding our relationship to the State, we consider what the Bible says about paying back “God’s things to God,” while subjecting ourselves to “the superior authorities” in secular matters. (Luke 20:25; Romans 13:1-7; Titus 3:1, 2) Yes, taking Bible laws and principles into account when making personal decisions helps maintain our Christian unity.

  16 We can help to maintain Christian unity even when making a decision that is totally personal and neither right nor wrong Scripturally. How so? By showing loving concern for others who may be affected by our decision. To illustrate: In the congregation in ancient Corinth, a question arose regarding meat sacrificed to idols. Of course, a Christian would not participate in an idolatrous ceremony. However, it was not sinful to eat properly bled leftover meat of this kind that was sold in a public market. (Acts 15:28, 29; 1 Corinthians 10:25) Nevertheless, the consciences of some Christians were troubled over the eating of this meat. Paul therefore urged other Christians to avoid stumbling them. In fact, he wrote: “If food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat flesh at all, that I may not make my brother stumble.” (1 Corinthians 8:13) So even if no Bible law or principle is involved, how loving it is to consider others when making personal decisions that could affect the unity of God’s family!

  17 If we are not sure what course to take, it is wise to decide in a way that leaves us with a clean conscience, and others should respect our decision. (Romans 14:10-12) Of course, when we must make a personal decision, we should seek Jehovah’s guidance in prayer. Like the psalmist, we can confidently pray: “Incline to me your ear. . . . For you are my crag and my stronghold; and for the sake of your name you will lead me and conduct me.”—Psalm 31:2, 3.
  ____________________________________________

  The Watchtower, April 1st 2003 Issue, Page 12:

  "The prosecutor also alleged that Brother Margaryan had coerced young members of the congregation into refusing military service."

  [...]

  "He [Brother Margaryan] also explained that military service is a personal decision"