Help needed: transgender people and other unclear topics

by TeaBiscuit 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • LoveUniHateExams

    Hi TeaBiscuit, welcome to the forum.

    have you any experience with transgender people in the congregation? - no.

    But I did hear a conversation about it, one that my study conductor was participating in. He said pretty much the same - if the transgendered person is looking to get baptised, then if they are pre-op they must stay with their gender of birth; if they're post-op they must go back to their gender of birth.

    As cofty points out, the percentage of transgender people is tiny. The percentage of transgender people looking to get baptised as JWs is much, much tinier still.

    Quite frankly, there are more important reasons not to join the JWs - the blood, paedophile and shunning issues - but the way this religious group treats transgender people does indeed highlight what it is like.

  • Vanderhoven7


    You are very fortunate not to have family in the organization. If you did and they slipped up and got disfellowshipped, you would have to shun them and consider them dead to you. If you do not comply with this instruction, you too would be disfellowshipped, which carries the weight of eternal destruction if you do not repent and get reinstated.

    The truth is, you don't need to join a church or religion to be saved. You need to know and trust the Saviour personally, and not men who make claims to special invisible appointments. The religion of Jehovah's Witnesses looks good from far...but it is far from good. Any religion which writes itself into the salvation formula and adds to the gospel of Jesus Christ is a false prophet. Take Jesus' warning about false teachers to heart.

  • Heartsafire


    Hello. Just a warning about JW's: baptism within their org is not the same as baptism in other so-called Christian religions. JW's baptism is a binding contract into their org and a publicly made agreement that you accept THEIR rules and standards for life even if those rules and standards conflict with your conscience (and many of these have no solid biblical foundation).

    It is obvious that you have already made your personal dedication to God. That is a private matter, and that is what counts. Even the JWs teach that baptism is the public display of what has already been done in private, although they likely won't admit that their baptism binds you to their organizational rules and those rules are subject to change.

    On the topic of transgenders, I recommend you check out the YouTube account for JW T girl. This is the account of a lady who was JW and went through the full transgender process. She tells her story and documents it in detail. You may get some insight on this topic from her account. Good luck.

  • TeaBiscuit

    Hey all, thank you all for all your answers. It is really nice to get so much input from so many people. Thanks a lot! In the following I will try to comment on all you said chronologically, so bear with my, this might be a bit long...

    sparrowdown. As I said before, this is a big issue for me. I will definitely keep in mind what you wrote, thank you!

    jwfacts. Thank you for the link. I've just read the beginning of it, since it's quite long I will read the rest later. As I'm not transgender myself this particular issue has not affected my personally. It was just a trigger that started a sh*tload of questions all bustling about in my head (excuse the language, but this is just exactly what it feels like). I'm just very confused right now...Thanks for your invitation to meet up. Unfortunately, I'm right on the other side of the globe and it does not look as if I'd make it to Australia very soon. Also, I'm very scared of spiders which might lead to never visit it at all :D ;) (though I've been told it's wonderful there)

    LisaRose. Exactly that was also my impression after talking to the bethelite and after reading the posts here. I like your comparison to diabetes. As you said, it seems extremely cruel!

    Giordano. First of all thank you for your encouragement.I was not aware of the child abuse issue. The numbers you gave are scary! I knew about the two witness rule but I wasn't aware of the fact that child abuse was also handled that way. I don't want to think about what those children had (or maybe even still have?!) to go through! This is really alarming...

    Anders Andersen. well, truth be told I always had a slight problem with the old testament. Sure, I get most of it & I get most of the rules and why they had to obey them. But the ones you quoted are hard. You gave the interpretation (if I got that right) that either the God who created them is not a loving one or that they are not of divine but of human origin. I already asked myself the same question - honestly? I could not answer it. My faith is based on two premisses: That God is love and that the bible is his word. Considering the verses you gave, only one of the premisses can be true - and this brings me into a great dilemma... also a reason I'm here right now. It is of course a possibility that there is another explanation that we can't grasp yet. But this is a highly philosophical topic that would need some talking over while drinking a good glass of wine or a nice cup of tea :D talking this over in this thread would probably go a bit to far I think. But you sure got me thinking... Maybe we can come back to that later or via private messages, if you'd like.

    Dunedain. Yes, I'm very much enjoying this discussion. And Im very thankful for everyone participating in it. Thank you also for your personal experience. I can imagine that hearing something like that can have a very imprinting effect. Though I can understand that someone might say that being homosexual is against God's laws I don't like the way people judge others. The thing is: If I PERSONALLY think that it is not the right thing to do than I PERSONALLY should not do it - I should not point on others but rather work on myself - we all have enough things to work on.

    freddo. Though I'm not sure how serious your comment was meant by you I actually liked your idea. Who knows - I might actually do that. Thank you!

    Half banana. Thanks for your input. I especially liked your last sentence, the one about seeing the other side of the coin before taking the leap. That's what I try to do... And I deeply hope that it will whelp to get rid of my confusion right now.

    Vanderhoven7. Thanks for your words. I will try to read and understand the bible myself, though I'm not quite sure where or how to start that project.

    Lieu. Well, that's how my problem started with this issue. I could not find scriptures that really support what that brother told me and because of that their regulations just seemed very "men-made" which was weird since they always try to support all of their rules with bible principles. Also about the insemination thing: I thought the same thing! Mary's pregnancy is basically artificial insemination - at least it is not natural... What was also surprising about this topic to me was that the JWs values families so high. Why deny a couple the wish for a family of their own if they cannot have it the natural way due to medical issues?!

    LoveUniHateExams. well, the transgender issue was just a trigger that started a lot of thinking and confusion...

    Vanderhoven7. Before I got in contact with the JWs I wasn't a member of a church. You said that it is possible to worship God on our own, without a group or church of any kind and I think you a right to some degree (John 4:23, 24). But how would you see or explain a verse like Hebrews 10: 24, 25 ("And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the costume, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the day drawing near"). I would be very interested in hearing your personal thoughts on this.

    Heartsafire. As you said I already made my dedication to God and that's exactly why I want to dig deeper and really see if becoming a part of this org is what He wants me to do. Thanks also for giving me the YouTube channel. I will definitely check her out!

    To all of you who participated (and who will participate) in this discussion: Thank you so much. When starting this topic I was afraid no one would answer or I would only get "leave them"-kind of answers but all of you have been very supportive and the variety of different ideas and perspective is really inspiring. I'm still very confused, though. Thanks for helping me and pointing things out that I was not aware of.

  • Anders Andersen
    Anders Andersen


    I'm impressed by the way you handle yourself in this discussion, responding to and valueing all input, even when it might contradict your personal convictions.

    I have been a true JW for 35 years, and left less than a year ago. My experience is that discussions like this (about subjects that really matter) are not possible with JW. My JW friends almost all go in full denial mode and say 'you are parroting apostates' when any arguments against JW doctrine or policies, the Bible or God are brought up.

    I left JW because I found out I have been lied to regarding evolution, and it's impossible to be a JW and question literal creation. It's not even allowed to openly discuss the possibility of evolution being true.

    If you value freedom of speech and thought, JW might be an inconvenient choice for a religion (and this is stated as politely as possible).

  • Lieu


    I also giggle at fundamentalists trying to use the bible against cloning. No scriptures for or against it.

    There's that whole how Eve was made "problem" too. If she was made from Adams rib, she's a feminine clone of him.

    But I digress .... just chit chattering.

  • rebel8

    Be like the Boreans. The Society has encouraged it; here's proof from WTS literature:

  • rebel8
  • TeaBiscuit

    Anders Andersen. Thank you! Well, I asked for peoples opinions and I am grateful that all of you answered and that all of you answered very honestly. It's okay to have diverse opinions as long as people are respectful to one another. I cannot say I've made the same experiences as you regarding the "talking about the subjects that matter" but that might just be because my JW history is significantly shorter than yours. But I've recognized that whatever the GB says is valued very highly though the sister studying with me once said "the most important thing is what's in the bible not what's in the literature. After all, the literature is made by men and not inspired like the Holy Scriptures". You might have by now realized that I value freedom of speech and thought very highly. As for your point, I will have to really think about it. Thanks for putting it so politely ;)

    Lieu. Well, chit-chat can be very nice. One of my best friends is a protestant and I love discussing topics like this with her.

    rebel8. Thank you for the links. I read a few quotes and actually I love the Scripture you hinted at. Acts 17:11 is a big encouragement and I will try to study the bible by myself to verify what I believe in.

  • HB

    Hi TeaBiscuit,

    From your posts, you seem to be a nice person, so I'm guessing your name refers to Nice biscuits which are designed to be dunked in tea?!

    On the theme of Rebel8's link above, if you believe that God (or any other deity) designed or created animals, then there are several species whose biology and behaviour patterns could indicate that He is fine with transgender.

    Or if you believe that God started life and left it to evolve, then we can at least say that He hasn't so far chosen to make these species extinct, which he could do if he didn't approve of sex changes.

    The Clownfish (remember 'Finding Nemo') is an example..

    It is a hermaphrodite which means that individuals are capable of changing their gender at some point in their life.

    This does not imply that they are 'transgender' in terms of their psychology or that they suffer from the feeling of being born in the wrong body. They change merely for species survival reasons.

    All babies are born male. They live in groups made up of all males and one female, and there is a hierarchy in each group with the female fish generally being the largest and most dominant fish in the group.

    The 'alpha male' will be the only one to breed with the female and both take turns in guarding the eggs. If the female dies, this dominate male begins to gain weight and will change sex to become the female of the group.

    This is just one example of many similar occurrences in nature, and as I said, although its not a parallel to human transgender issues, for Christians it could be used to show that the concept of sex change at least in the animal kingdom is presumably not abhorrent to God.

    But for the Watchtower, it seems that anything and everything which is even remotely or distantly connected to 'sex' is automatically abhorrent and sinful.

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