Even elders don’t know their beliefs
@ sir82: "And yet, somehow, that "due time" never comes."
Quote of the day right there.
I'm reminded of the comment made by WTB&TS President Nathan Knorr, who said that all he was sure about was that Jehovah was God; 1914 and all the other stuff... well he wasn't sure.
It is GOOD that Knorr lived to see the grand hallucinations of Freddy Franz fail. It is a shame that so many were disfellowshipped for voicing their doubts before Knorr decided to voice his doubts.
Most elders don't have the time to do any research.
I have had mild success in waking up another (family member) using questions to draw them out more. You have to be careful not to get then to the point of shutting down though.
How you went about it seems like you were able to plant seeds... You could show him the whole line of kings, working forward in time, showing how long they ruled and show how the time line doesn't match 607...
You can use ONLY JW material for this, as their times line up with secular times (number of years ruling does, but the actual dates/years are diff) someone posted the whole time line w/ organizational references here a while back (less than a year ago I think ) alot is in the insight books, you may need to find some old WTs and KMs too though
That being said, walking someone up and getting then to want to leave are 2 very different things.. The first may be easy if done right and by the right person (close family may be ok, but a friend from the hall may not be) but the second may be impossible depending on circumstances and personality of the newly awakened
Before I left, and I'm thinking it was around 2000, I was at a gathering of pretty close friends. This group was very open about their feelings with the understanding nothing left the room; it was completely "safe."
One time a relative was there, a current elder/former special pioneer (Ireland). I don't remember what we were talking about, but it probably was a bit of groaning about the same things that are discussed here. I remember the brother was mimicking going up to the door in FS and said, "Hi! I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses and we don't know what we believe."
That just really hit home, and I never forgot it.
The old JW bull crap, one liner, that Jah will provide the answer in due time, is complete and utter NONSENSE. Many of these "points" that need clarification in "due time", are VERY big biblical doctrines.
When you break down how important these points are, it logically makes NO sense then why there would even be confusion, and why it would even need to be revealed in "due time".
Then, if you add on top of this, that some points have still not even been figured out over 120 YEARS of Jahs earthly org, it just sounds like a bunch of bullshit. A loving, all powerful God who would be directing thru his ONLY earthly channel, would never need or have to take 120 years to "decipher" "truths" that were already foretold, and written.
It makes no sense, and when they use it as their "go to" response for not being able to answer, i shut them down with this logic, why would Jah do that???
Dunedain - I've got a little more logic for you...
God knows everything and yet we need his son, who has been tested and knows what it's like to be human and to be tempted etc, to plead for us. Cuz, you know... Good doesn't know... Can't see what we go through or isn't very empathetic..?
According to Psalms 103:13,14 - Jah has compassion for us, knowing we are made from dust (I.e. inherently weak) and yet your weakness is your fault. (ok, turns out he's sorta empathetic.. but it's your fault still)
God so loved the world that... friendship with the world is enmity with god..
Your eternal life/destruction depends on you believing in a book that could be divinely inspired or just as easily been written as a tool of control and oppression, written before you were born where all the witnesses have been long dead and the important parts are not verifiable - I.e. you have to have blind belief about it all or you die for forever. Now that's love!
And I guess those inconsistencies in the bible are just there to test your faith...? How many angels at Jesus tomb again? And did the girls go and tell everyone...? Or was it that they told noone out of fear?
Oh, and lets put a tree in the garden for absolutely no reason... Then we'll tell the humans not to eat of it.... WTF is the point?
He is our potter, we are the clay and the clay cannot resist the potter yet we are supposed to put forth effort to be molded by him but if he moulds us into a vessel of dishonor, is our fault.
I could go on... and on.. and on...
@hybridous: "If the WT Society directed that JWs believe the moon is made of candy, there we go...it's about adherence to the authority."
You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, the Watchtower hierarchy has created and demanded a culture where its followers no longer respect what is true over what those authority say, but rather choose to venerate those in authority over what is truth. This is a toxic dictatorship that has led to grown people (such as @Addison0998's father) to engage in dismissive, infant-like thought patterns ("more evidence [will come] later").
I did notice, Addison, that your father remarked that we need to trust the Bible over "those other people" (historians). You could definitely find multiple articles online demonstrating that the scriptures are most certainly in accord with the 587BCE date. It's actually the Watchtower that has defected from what the Bible says. Hope this helps.
They really don’t, got into an argument with and elder over jesus not being his mediator. About two weeks later he came around and apologized as I was right but yeah their better at spouting off scriptures for certain biblical doctrines they believe in over the average publishers but that’s about it.
They also don’t want to deal with thinking people as they kept pushing me off and then told me to go talk to a pioneering brother at the nieghboring congregation he new his shit. After taking with him a time or two I realized he just walked around with copies of subjects printed right out of the insight books.