Remind re: The "Cult" Label

by Simon 43 Replies latest forum announcements

• 

  Magnum

  Jehalapeno:
  

  all the same things can be said about the anti-Trump crowd

  Very good point. Reminds me of the arguments I used to have with my mother. She would inevitably resort to "You always think you're right!", which is simply an ad hominem attack; it is not a logical substantive argument that could/should aid one in winning an argument or debate. And, similar to what you said, I could say the same thing about her, and I did.

  Here's almost word for word what would result after she said such:

  Magnum: [said slowly and deliberately] OK, well, let me see. We're arguing now, and in this argument, do you think you're right?

  Mama Magnum: [said reluctantly] Yes.

  Magnum: And in the last argument we had, did you think you were right?

  Mama Magnum: Yeah

  Magnum: In fact, in every argument we've ever had, you thought you were right, or we wouldn't have been arguing. Isn't that right?

  Mama Magnum: [reluctantly] Yeah.

  Magnum: Well, then, why do you state that I always think I'm right as if there's something wrong with that when the exact same thing can justifiably be said about you?

  When it's obvious that she sees the point, she changes the subject and yells: "Quit playing lawyer with me!"

  I respond with "First, what does "playing lawyer" mean and second, why is it wrong? [pause] If you mean that I'm being logical and demanding evidence, then why should I quit doing that? Do you want me to stop because I'm being logical and showing how wrong you are? Do you want us to just have a free-for-all, unstructured yelling match which leads nowhere and is not constructive?"

  It is hopeless to argue with her. She actually lacks the intellect, the comprehension, the knowledge, the composure, the honesty, etc. to be able to argue in a logical, honest manner. She would be thrown out of a courtroom by any qualified judge.

  I've read or heard the words of many of those who resort to the "Trump followers = cult" argument, but, as you wrote, the words could simply be reversed on them.

  I could refer to the "anti-Trump cult". They are blindly rabid in their hate for Trump and simply want him removed from office. Ask them what their platform is, what their agenda is, what they're going to do, how they're going to fix things or make them better, and you get a deer-in-headlights look.

  I could refer to "the Obama cult". I saw people literally crying over him, almost slobbering over him, and they had no clue as to what he was going to do, but they loved them some Obama.

  I actually don't think I could honestly refer to a "Biden Cult" because I think that Dems don't really like Biden; I think a lot of them actually hate him. Do you think AOC loves the old white man Biden? Do you think all the blacks and far lefties who voted Dem love Biden? I don't; I think they detest him. I think they were voting anti-Trump, anti-conservative, pro-Biden handlers, pro-Kamala. I think they just want their foot in the door, hoping ole white man Joe will kick the bucket or go 100% senile (instead of just the 97% he already is) and be removed so Kamala can step in. [Actually, I don't really think it's senility; I think he's just an airhead and always has been.]

  Main point: Referring to conservatives as "the cult of Trump" or similar is simply an ad hominem attack and the argument could be reversed on them. However, arguments in which such tactics are used are for weak people - people who lack intellect and/or knowledge.
• 

  Simon

  The reality is there is a Trump cult. So many here apparently have been sucked in again by another cult. Their ego prevents them from dealing with the cognitive dissonance

  Good bye all ..I guess I will be disfellowshipped from the site now after 20 years.

  simon.. so sad what you have become. Remember the you from 20 years ago versus your current personna.

  Is it a reality? If it was, it would be easy to prove and argue convincingly, right?

  So the mic is all yours - have at it! ...

  But be sure to make clear how every point you make only applies to Trump but doesn't apply to Obama, RBG, Biden et al. 'Cause thems the rules when it comes to making a point.

  You see you don't actually have a point. You don't like Trump and that is the extent of your "argument". So you throw around the "cult" label because there isn't anything quite so insulting to an audience of ex-members of a religion that many like to call a cult. You add the "I'll be deleted for saying this" BS because you want to be because it would save you being called out on it - but you haven't been, so explain how anyone supporting Trump is a cult follower but people supporting Obama weren't. I think I could come up with way more convincing and legitimate reasons for the opposite, that there is a personality cult around Obama and his followers excuse or praise things he did while condemning the exact same actions when done by Trump.

  Anyone who wants can see I have a long and consistent record of not just accepting what I'm told about a topic and I put honesty and correctness ahead of being liked or popular - I don't care if my stance is unpopular as long as it is correct or at least arguable. But I also change my mind if I'm presented with new evidence.

  So far you haven't done that - just more of the same act that we've seen from the anti-Trump cult (ha, see, it's so easy to toss it out!)

  Look forward to your comprehensive and convincing reply :)
• 

  stan livedeath

  politics; groan

  Mercan politics; GROAN
• 

  peacefulpete

  My wife's 92 year old Grandma was just told last week she was no longer welcome in the home of another of her grandchilldren since she voted for Biden. This kind of politics we can do without.

  Without rules political "debates" are just WWE wrestling with rowdier fans.
  

  If a Trump supporter chooses a single narrow topic, have spent 10 minutes fact checking, allows only 2 people to participate so as to allow for a constructive development of thought, refrains from using insulting language and implications, addresses the previous post with a response, I and many here would engage in a meaningful discussion. We do want to understand you. You must help us by slowing down and take things one small topic at a time without the vitriol that dominates our times.

  Now then, what one topic Simon, narrow enough to have a meaningful coverage have you always wanted to discuss? Start a new thread with those rules, announce the participants and lets see if that can't work. A moderator would be helpful to keep participants to the rules and on topic. I'm game.
  
• 

  Simon

  My wife's 92 year old Grandma was just told last week she was no longer welcome in the home of another of her grandchilldren since she voted for Biden. This kind of politics we can do without.

  I agree. Although I think there are far, far more cases of people taking "retribution" against people voting for Trump than vice-versa. Either way, anyone doing this is an idiot.
  

  If a Trump supporter chooses a single narrow topic, have spent 10 minutes fact checking, allows only 2 people to participate so as to allow for a constructive development of thought, refrains from using insulting language and implications, addresses the previous post with a response, I and many here would engage in a meaningful discussion. We do want to understand you. You must help us by slowing down and take things one small topic at a time without the vitriol that dominates our times.

  That's not how a discussion forum works, you are describing something more akin to a structured debate. Every topic should stay on the subject, without allowing people to derail it by posting gibberish or making false claims that contain zero addressable points - a common tactic to shut down a topic they disagree with without having anything specific they can point to, so they resort to simply being disagreeable. And the vitriol you imply only comes from the right? There seems to be a lot more of that coming from the left I'm afraid from what I observe.

  The issue is when people show up, start throwing "cult" labels around because they can't be bothered forming an argument and then get annoyed if they are called out on it.

  Reverse it: if you are unhappy with someone supporting Trump then come up with a considered reason and explanation of why you think their support is wrong. Point to the policy. If it ends with "because TRUMP!" then you failed and will continue to fail. You may not grasp or understand this, you may think that's enough, but I'm telling you that it isn't.

  That was the point of the original post. It's really not difficult. It's not complicated. It's so simple anyone should be able to understand it.

  Now then, what one topic Simon, narrow enough to have a meaningful coverage have you always wanted to discuss? Start a new thread with those rules, announce the participants and lets see if that can't work. A moderator would be helpful to keep participants to the rules and on topic. I'm game.

  Whenever there is a topic I want to discuss or news I want to comment on, you can be sure I'll start a topic to do so or reply to an existing one. Are you attempting to suggest that I'm somehow refusing to have some discussion?
• 

  joey jojo

  I've appreciated the incredibly helpful information on this website for many years.

  I hope it's ok to give some feedback. Maybe the whole issue of politics shouldn't be allowed the amount of oxygen that it gets here. It is, after all, a site that many people come to for a discussion about religious beliefs and doctrines of jws.

  I'm not saying that politics, or any other subject shouldn't be discussed, but over the last few years, political subjects here have become a bit tiresome and detract from the objective of the website.

  Just my 2 cents.
• 

  Simon

  Maybe the whole issue of politics shouldn't be allowed the amount of oxygen that it gets here. It is, after all, a site that many people come to for a discussion about religious beliefs and doctrines of jws.

  There simply isn't enough JW related news to discuss and engage people 24x7 for years on end. There is also no reason we can't discuss politics or any other myriad topics - we always have, checkout the heated debates about whether WoMDs were a thing for instance. Anyone who can't stand that opinions that differ from their own are allowed should leave or simply not click on those topics.

  The sole responsibility for what you read and take part in is your own. Everyone has the same options.

  That doesn't mean we allow a single topic to take over. If there are 3 topics on some event, maybe we don't need a 4th one. Or if people seem intent on repeating the same things or trying to keep bringing topics back to the topic when there is no natural appetite for discussion they might be locked. People tend not to notice this more subtle moderation, which is the point - it's less intrusive and no one is being denied a chance to share their opinion on something ... but we do have limits that can be reached.
  
  
• 

  peacefulpete

  That's not how a discussion forum works, you are describing something more akin to a structured debate.

  Yes, that is what you said you wanted. A reasonably argued meaningful debate free of name calling, stereotyping, and gotcha digs and insults. Can't have it both ways. Well some have the discipline, but many do not. A free-for-all board hashing contentious issues just alienates and entrenches. Its a substantial reason social media is implicated in furthering division. Forums like this one, face that fact at some point. Either you limit the topics and establish behavior rules or you accept becoming something biased something that retains only those who like echo chambers. Honestly Simon this site has long ago crossed that line for many posters. Many of the past best posters left because of the constant caustic politics. You know that.
  

  If we took a vote, I'd bet even those still here would prefer political discussions be limited to one section and not allowed to creep into every topic.
  
• 

  peacefulpete

  There simply isn't enough JW related news to discuss and engage people 24x7 for years on end

  Establishing a forum with that stated purpose of helping people escape and rebuild lives after the WT was a generous and thankless task. Keeping it operating for those thousands leaving every day might be an even bigger sacrifice. It's a lot like being a family counselor. It's got to get difficult to maintain interest after years of hearing the same issues over and over. Maybe it's time some of us left for other pastures if we just don't want to discuss the WT related issues anymore. There will be new blood if the forum is welcoming.

  Politics have changed and forums are struggling to keep things civil everywhere. It's the issue of the decade.
  
• 

  Simon

  Yes, that is what you said you wanted.

  Where do you think I've said that?

  A reasonably argued meaningful debate free of name calling, stereotyping, and gotcha digs and insults. Can't have it both ways.

  Straw-man. There are more options than a rigid, structured debate format or else a free-for-call where insults and name calling is allowed. Like maybe a normal discussion by sensible resonable people.

  Well some have the discipline, but many do not. A free-for-all board hashing contentious issues just alienates and entrenches.

  Right, which is why there are limits and I reminded people that repeating the same insult isn't a winning argument. Reasoned discussion is always welcome, but mindless insults are not which is why I reminded people of that simple fact.

  Its a substantial reason social media is implicated in furthering division. Forums like this one, face that fact at some point. Either you limit the topics and establish behavior rules or you accept becoming something biased something that retains only those who like echo chambers. Honestly Simon this site has long ago crossed that line for many posters. Many of the past best posters left because of the constant caustic politics. You know that.

  People leave all the time. it's actually not healthy if people don't. You probably think you know why everyone leaves, but you don't. Sometimes their flare-up is a sign that it's time for them to leave and they have outgrown the forum or the community has outgrown them. Whatever it is, it's time for them to find someplace else to spend their time.

  Some people move on because they have other things todo with their lives. Some people move on because they are kicked out for being dicks because they think rules shouldn't apply to them or they should be allowed special dispensation based on their previous contributions. That isn't how this forum operates.

  If we took a vote, I'd bet even those still here would prefer political discussions be limited to one section and not allowed to creep into every topic.

  It's not in every topic and what this topic was about was reminding people that they should not try to continue to score points against people by posting their insults, which some did on completely unrelated topics. When people do that their posts are removed. When they keep doing that then at some point they are removed. If it happens to be someone who's posted valuable things in the past or been on the site for a long time, then it's a shame but don't they have some responsibility to have learnt the rules by now?

  Isn't that what you want? You lament people leaving (up to them) or being shown the door (up to me) but at the same time want restrictions on what people can post ... that itself by definition means that some will not like that, and leave, and some will not adhere to it, and be "left".

  And people vote on what they want to see every time they click a link or post a comment. As long as topics don't take over, which they haven't despite what you seem to be claiming (it was an election year, possibly the most contentious ever ... I think we did rather well that considered!) and as long as the posts are on topic, then there is no reason not to allow them. The only thing I'm not allowing is the unrelated, drive-by, insults that are always variations on "but, but, Orange Man BAD!". THAT is what get's boring.

  There will be new blood if the forum is welcoming.

  Which it can't be, if some are allowed to simple insult others, with no reason behind it, simply because they have moderate beliefs on certain political policies. Hence this simple, polite, request / reminder topic.

  What doesn't help is people who make a big issue out of a simple request.

  Politics have changed and forums are struggling to keep things civil everywhere. It's the issue of the decade.

  Right, but we don't have to follow most other platforms which allow conservatives to be discriminated against just because they support Trump.