by Moxy 24 Replies latest jw friends
on your way out, did you have the 'talk' with an elder? (or elders?) The kind of, 'Excuse me, brother Only-Elder-Who-I-Really-Trust, I've been having serious doubts about such-and-such and I would really appreciate it if you could help me see if I'm missing something, I sincerely want to know...'
if you did, did you feel it benefited you or was detrimental to your situation?
thx
mox
no talk just quit going, and no one seemed to notice. The elders did come to my house when they thought I was married and only wanted to know if I had slept with him before I married him. I lied and said no. But really we lived together for 5 months before we got married. The elders never came back, and no one noticed I never went back. Except maybe my mom who thought when I got divorced I would return to the meetings. Fat chance.
Pam
...interesting topic Moxy.
In spite of my problems and doubts, initially I had ´no intention of leaving. I started asking my questions - and got no answers. The few answers I got, had nothing to do with my questions, but were simply attempts to make me forget about my problems and doubts and just enjoy to be a part of The Truth... and you know the rest of the melody. These 'answers' - and my unanswered questions - made me wonder, and started my 'leaving-procedure'.
So in way, yes - I am having the talk with the elders on my way out...
cecil
cecil:
so the process is helpful then for you, imasmuch as it validates you?
mox
Moxy
Yes it's helpful - in a way that I couldn't even imagine before. A couple of years ago my attitude was: - Please help me, I must be missing something here, because I don't see things the same way any longer. There is something wrong WITH ME!
When you dare to see things without the WT-filter - because the elders' (read: WT-representatives') 'answers' equal a big round ZERO in content!!!* - you sudddenly ask yourself: - Could it be, that it's not me who has the big problem here or is missing something of great importance, but something's completely wrong with what THE WT is teaching...?! Could it be that simple?
That's the point in my life, when I started having sleepless nights...!
cecil
Actually I was disfellowshipped. However, prior to it happening I had had numerous discussions with elders and other JW's whose opinion I respected. But the clincher for staying out for me was when the word got out that I wasn't coming back, my former best friend stopped by my house (he knew he shouldn't have) to see how I was doing. I hadn't been to a meeting in a few months, and I was now living with "worldly people". When I told him that I was through with the Witnesses he said (I swear I'm not making this up) "...that I might as well just kill myself now, 'cause I'm a dead man come Armaggedon." He never was much for tact. While it was quite a shock to hear him say this, it really shouldn't be. Afterall, isn't this exactly what they believe, regardless of how few actually have the nerve to voice such an idea?? All the years I had been a Witness, not once did I hear a good thing about someone who had left.
At least my dad was a bit more choice with this words when he said that by leaving the JW's "I have completley ignored my long-term future and my hope of everlasting life, of which I was privledged to have an understanding for the first 25 years of my life. In disowning Jehovah, you have seperated yourself from everything good. Absolutley nothing that you do, no accomplishment that you may attain to, means a thing if pusued outside the context of loyal worhsip of Jehovah."
Thanks, Dad. Different words, same idea...
Muzicman
Hey Moxy,
You big furry mammal I talked to several people about my concerns, including several elders. I had a problem with the love of God being not shown in the org. Not in the individual so much as it coming straight from the top. Not allowed to volunteer, assist the needy, and poor with hands on relief. Also the thought that God was going to turn his back on the majority of people here on earth if they didn't become JW's and the only way to get them to be JW is if we preached.
In the back of my mind I thought what about those people that never hear our life-saving message. I was told Jehovah will see to them, because he knows everything. Then I would be in service, someone would slam the door in our face and a remark is made how they will now die at the big A because they refused to listen to the "word" How can that be possible for us to even say, who will die, when God is to be the judge?
Anyway it was blamed on the R&F for having this attitude, when I could see plain as day, in black and white in the wtbts literature. I was just sick of all the people being misled. One thing I noticed is that all must have the same mentality, and all answers become part of the program, JT often speak of. So maybe you could plant seeds of "truth" in the elders when you speak to them upon your exit, this would be the only good that could come of discussing it. I think if I had to do it over I definately would have left different. But hindsight is 20/20, and we all live with the choices we make.
wendy
I WAS AN ELDER- SO no we didn't talk with anyone
after doing my research i knew that there was not anything just low level managers within the org could do
in fact not a CO or DO or Branch committee member could help
it went straight to the GB and their key RIGHT HAND MEN
unless these guys made changes the poor local elder who is no more than a COG in a very large Corporate Wheel is useless
has anyone seen the commerial about the hotel where it talks about good service and there is this hotel where the customer calls down to the front desk and says:
"There is food on the floor and the room is not clean"
the the desk guys say: "I'm sorry"
customer says : "OK , so when can i expect it to be taken care of"
desk guy "Well I'm truly sorry"
customer " OK i heard you apologize - when will someone be up"
desk guy: "Well i'm only authorized to tell you i'm sorry"
and that is the way it is in wt- the local elders are only AUTHORIZED TO GIVE THE CORP LINE
or else they will be handling the mikes next week
smile
James
The Freedom to Think means:
"I'd rather have Questions that I can't Answer ----Than Questions, I can't Ask.
(or Answers that I can't Question)."
I spoke to one elder who visited me. I made sure he was alone so there was no other witness to what was said.
He was a reasonable person, as reasonable as one could be I guess. Nothing good and nothing bad came of it and I feel neither better or worse for having spoken with him. There is really nothing an elder can do and expecting him to ever side with you or change based on a meeting or two is a slim to none chance.
Now there is another elder who is in another hall who really was one of those sorts of friends that you can talk about whatever, even stuff critical. Eventually after months and months of discussions I eventually got to him, but it took a long time.
That felt good in that instance but it was a very rare sort of situation. The bottom line is NEVER trust an elder. Most will in the end be loyal to the "arrangement" over a friend, no matter what they say in private to you.
To simply fade away in silence is the best. Sometimes it's hard because there is so much u want to say sometimes. But eventually you get comfortable and feel good. You will miss very little.
Path
Uuum, it's hard to say really. I was just a schlub publisher, but was an ace public speaker. My half-hearted attendance and service record kept me from advancing, in which I wasn't interested in the first place. Um, and my attitude, which was questioning every sort of thing. Like matters of grooming, appearance, behaviors; in other words I was constantly questioning them in matters of conscience. As in why the elders presumed to arrogate to themselves the right to attempt replacing my conscience with their conscience.
And when I got good and fed up, I wrote a ten page letter to the governing body, implicating one particularly noxious elder. There were two elders of similiar viewpoint and outlook, and the three of us got together frequently to ponder JW imponderables.
The final outcome was: 1) the noxious elder was removed; 2) both the friendly and compassionate elders faded away. One of them wrote an official letter of disassociation, the other just flat left and was later dfed for smoking. 3) I just stopped going, and had multiple visits from a committee of two drunks and a thief sent by the noxious elder mentioned above trying to get the goods on me. I tape-recorded every word, which made them all squirm. Three years later I was also dfed for smoking. Which was very similar to being fired three years after you quit your job. It was an act of pure and total spite; utterly unnecessary all things considered.
There is no point talking to the elders. As I've pointed out elsewhere, it is useless to attempt logic and reason with someone about an emotional issue. Emotions are not amenable to logic or reason. Ever try to talk someone out of having a relationship with a person obviously bad, but with whom your friend was "in love"? Can't be done. Logic has no effect on emotion.
And that's my two cents worth.
Francoise
