Early Hominem. Neanderthals. Evolution.

by solameguy12 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Mowgliandbalu
    Mowgliandbalu

    Two comments on evolution from me as a JDub who attended only Awake! university except for a basic school education:

    1. Anyone familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect? In a nutshell: How would you ever make an idiot (JDub) understand that he is an idiot? Impossible!

    2. Madagascar: 95% of reptile, 80% of mammal, and 64% of bird species are endemic, living only on the island east of Africa. Nowhere else. What does this tell about the question of whether evolution is a fact or not? ... And, btw, to the question whether there was a global Flood about 4000 years ago?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    Genesis-as-literal-history is too deeply baked into WT cosmology.

    @ Vidiot

    The WT does not teach a literal Genesis history. They are in the same "billions-of-years" camp as atheists. When a person leaves the WT, rarely do they shed the billion-of-years indoctrination they received as a child from the WT and their partents.

    See the article:

    "Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe in Creationism? No".

    "Jehovah’s Witnesses have no objection to ...the earth...be[ing] billions of years old."

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    DJW,

    I think you would agree that if you are a "born-in", had our ancestors believed God, they would not have put their trust in the Governing Body and that would have saved us much tragedy.

    Psalm 146:3 - Do not trust in...in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.

    Jeremiah 17:5 - Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind

    Isaiah 2:22 - Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils; For why should he be esteemed?

    The choice to not believe God is directly responsible for wiping out 5 generations of my family. So, I am very reluctant to go against what God says. I've seen the devastating consequences.

    Correct thinking and sound logic make the decision to believe God fully acceptable to me.

    The blatant deceptions of evolutionists are simply breath-taking. The video below is just one of many examples of why the biblical advice on not putting our ultimate trust in men is wise.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObX3UdrKvZo&t=136s

    By the way, whale fossils are widely touted by evolutionists as the best evidence they have to support molecules-to-man evolution. Incredible.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Sea Breeze, the WT has rarely said the Earth and/or universe is/are billions of years of old. They have thus not indoctrinated people to believe the Earth and/or universe i/are billions of years old. Instead the WT has said their is no conflict between the Genesis account (due the WT acceptance of the Gap theory created by creationists more than 170 years ago) and however old the scientists say the Earth and/or universe is old. The WT many times has said and continues to say the earth and universe may be as old as the scientists say, but the WT has very rarely (I'm only aware of them saying that a few times in the 1970s) taught it is as old as the scientists say. Even the quote you made of the WT (especially when none of the words are replaced with ellipses) agrees with completely that, for the quote does not say the JWs believe the Earth is billions of years old, but rather that JWs have no objection to scientific ideas of the Earth being that old. The WT website (without the omissions you made to the quote) says "For that reason, Jehovah’s Witnesses have no objection to credible scientific research that indicates the earth may be billions of years old." It was very dishonest of you to leave out the word "may" (and that your changed "be" into "be[ing]") from the quote while at the same time saying the WT indoctrinates people into believing "billions of years old". You mishandled (or misquoted) the quote of the WT, as a result of misrepresenting the meaning of the WT's word. What you did is the same kind of the thing the WT has often done of the words of others, whom the WT quoted from.

    Other than the teaching of the length of the creative days, the WT's teaching of the Genesis chapter one creation account is almost entirely literal.

    I leaned about the age of the Earth and the age of the universe not from the WT but from scientific sources. I learned of it in my childhood from science news reports on TV and in newspapers, from watching science shows on PBS television, from reading science articles in magazines (such as Newsweek and Science80), from reading science articles in World Book encyclopedia (my mom bought the Encyclopedia set when my sister and I were in high school, to help with our education), from reading science books from the public grade school library and the public polytechnic high school library, from a science book I bought (the 1980 World Book Science Year), and from reading it in certain textbooks (such as in the high school biology textbook and in the prehistory anthropology section of the world history high school textbook) I studied in school.

    The idea of the universe and even the Earth being less than 100,000 years is not an idea of of more than a tiny percentage literature. The only literature which says the universe and even the Earth is less than 100,000 years old is some Christian literature (no secular literature). Furthermore, the vast majority of the churches even in the USA do not teach that the Earth is less than 100,000 years old. Outside of the USA, the percentage of Christians who accept young Earth creationism is very tiny. Likewise the percentage of Christians outside of the USA who are fundamentalists is very tiny.

    The idea of the Earth being far more than 10,000 years ago was the idea of scientists who were Christians believing in creation, which began before wrote his Origin of Species book. Christians believers in creation and the Bible who were geologist discover ancient extinct animals, even dinosaurs, and layers of rock, and evidence of weathering, and thus concluded the Earth was far more than 10,000 years old. They came up with the idea of old Earth creationism (and some of the Christian geologists came up wit the idea that the world had been destroyed many times by God and that God created new species of life to replace the ones he had destroyed). They didn't get the idea from atheists. The vast majority of the western world scientists back then were Christians who never (at least before 1857) believed in biological evolution.

    Regarding your comment of "The choice to not believe God", that does not apply to me (at least not from my perspective). God (a god) never spoke to me and never wrote to me, or in any other way communicated to me.It was thus never a matter of ceasing to believe what God told me, since God never communicated to me. Furthermore, i discovered there is no conclusive evidence that God even exists, except as the imagination of many humans. The Bible though claiming to be God's word, was written by entirely humans and consists entirely of the ideas of humans. To me there is no proof that the Bible contains the words of God, or of any god. I stopped believing the Bible (except in some claims which are reasonable and consistent with science, including what it claimed God said.

    You say you chose to believe God, but you get your ideas of God's alleged message from the Bible. But there are other scripture books which teach a different message about God, yet you reject them as being inspired of God. You chose to not to believe them. As a result of analysis of the Bible I chose to cease believing the Bible, much as I never ended up believing the other scripture books. After I stopped virtually all JW meeting attendance i purchased the Apocrypha, the Koran, the Mormon 'Quad', books of the religion so-called "Christian Science", and scripture books of some other religions. I analyzed them and my analysis confirmed my idea that the religions of those books is also false. They are all books of entirely human ideas, even when the books claims to be stating the words of God.

    Regarding those who 'are a "born-in" ' and regarding your comment of "had our ancestors believed God" devout Jehovah's Witnesses believe they believe in Jehovah God and the Bible. MY JW very strongly believes in Jehovah and in the Bible. She believes what the Genesis creation says, but that doesn't mean that the only way to believe it is believe in a 100% literal interpretation of it. She believes that God did not intend the days mentioned in the account to be understood as literal 24-hour solar days.

    Sea Breeze when you put your trust in the words of the Bible, you are putting your trust in mortal men, for they are the ones who wrote the book you are trusting in. You say you are free from the influence of the WT, but you and many of your family began their reading of the Bible under the influence of the WT. The WT literature and JW meetings over and over and over told you and your parents that the Bible is the word of God and that the Bible is telling the truth when it quotes what claims to be the utterances of Jehovah/LORD God and the utterances of Jesus Christ. You also put your trust in the man named Paul (who claimed to be an apostle of Jesus) and in his words. You put your trust in the mortal men (and maybe women) who translated the Bible into English (such as in the KJV Bible and the NKJ Bible) and who decided which manuscripts to use for the basis of their translations. God didn't write a book and hand it to you. You obtained the book(s) directly from humans. God also didn't literally speak to you.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    The WT's web page which Sea Breeze provided a link to says the following. "However, according to the Bible, the earth and the universe existed before the six days of creation. (Genesis 1:1) For that reason, Jehovah’s Witnesses have no objection to credible scientific research that indicates the earth may be billions of years old." The first sentence in that quote is one literal interpretation of the Genesis chapter one account. It is part of the idea of the Gap Theory which Christian believers in biblical creation (before Russell began the WT) came up with in the 1800s, and it is mentioned in the Scofield Reference Bible (a study Bible) edition of the KJV, which was originally published in 1909. (I own a deluxe leather copy of the 1917 revised edition of that Bible.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scofield_Reference_Bible says the following. "It was in the pages of the Scofield Reference Bible that many Christians first encountered Archbishop James Ussher's calculation of the date of Creation as 4004 BC; and through discussion of Scofield's notes, which advocated the "gap theory," fundamentalists began a serious internal debate about the nature and chronology of creation.[3] " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gap_Creationism says the following.

    "Gap creationism (also known as ruin-restoration creationism, restoration creationism, or "the Gap Theory") is a form of old Earth creationism that posits that the six-yom creation period, as described in the Book of Genesis, involved six literal 24-hour days (light being "day" and dark "night" as God specified), but that there was a gap of time between two distinct creations in the first and the second verses of Genesis, which the theory states explains many scientific observations, including the age of the Earth.[1][2][3] It differs from day-age creationism, which posits that the 'days' of creation were much longer periods (of thousands or millions of years), and from young Earth creationism, which although it agrees concerning the six literal 24-hour days of creation, does not posit any gap of time.

    ... From 1814,[4] Thomas Chalmers popularized gap creationism;[5] he attributed the concept to the 17th-century Dutch Arminian theologian Simon Episcopius. "

    Notice the idea of a Gap in creation did not originate with atheists, but with a Christian theologian in the 17th century (or perhaps even earlier)!

    Notice also that SeaBreeze in his quote of the WT left out the sentence in which the WT said the biblical reason (one of a literal interpretation) of why "... Jehovah’s Witnesses have no objection to credible scientific research that indicates the earth may be billions of years old."

    Correction: In my prior post I had multiple typos when I wrote the following. "The idea of the Earth being far more than 10,000 years ago was the idea of scientists who were Christians believing in creation, which began before wrote his Origin of Species book. Christians believers in creation and the Bible who were geologist discover ancient extinct animals, even dinosaurs, and layers of rock, and evidence of weathering, and thus concluded the Earth was far more than 10,000 years old." I should have wrote the following instead. "The idea of the Earth being far more than 10,000 years ago was the idea of scientists who were Christians believing in creation, which began before Charles Darwin wrote his Origin of Species book. Christians believers in creation and the Bible who were geologists discovered ancient extinct animals, even dinosaurs, and layers of rock, and evidence of weathering, and thus concluded the Earth was far more than 10,000 years old."

    The "me.It " in my prior post is an error created by this website (and by me leaving out a blank space), due it 'thinking' it was a URl. I meant it to simply say "me. " followed by the word "It".

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot
    Sea Breeze - The WT does not teach a literal Genesis history.”

    You know damn well I’m talking about the Eden narrative.

    Christian fundamentalists - the Watchtower Society included - reject evolution, not because it’s “unproven”, “just a theory”, or even scientifically implausible.

    They reject it because if it’s true, the Eden account can’t be literal history…

    …therefore, Adam and Eve weren’t actual real people, therefore the “Original Sin” (whatever one thinks it is) didn’t actually happen, therefore Jesus’ “ransom sacrifice” wasn’t necessary…

    …therefore - from their POV - their understanding of Christianity’s actual purpose and legitimacy is fundamentally undermined.

    And that is unacceptable to them.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    It’s the same reason they also reject any suggestion of secular history that pre-dates the Bible, the possibility of intelligent extraterrestrial life, and - particularly - the existence of other, genetically distinct of species of hominids.

    None of those things are compatible with a Genesis-as-literal-history-based worldview.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Correction/Update: In prior post I wrote "... the idea of the Gap Theory which Christian believers in biblical creation (before Russell began the WT) came up with in the 1800s ...." I said the 1800s because I thought the idea originated then. I knew it began heavy promotion back then. Later in my post I said it originated by a Christian theologian in the 17th century, because I later found information in Wikipedia which gives credit to such.

    The Wikipedia article also says the following.

    'In 1954, a few years before the re-emergence of young-Earth flood-geology eclipsed Gap creationism, influential evangelical theologian Bernard Ramm wrote in The Christian View of Science and Scripture:[4]

    "The gap theory has become the standard interpretation throughout hyper-orthodoxy, appearing in an endless stream of books, booklets, Bible studies, and periodical articles. In fact, it has become so sacrosanct with some that to question it is equivalent to tampering with Sacred Scripture or to manifest modernistic leanings".

    '


  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    They reject it because if it’s true, the Eden account can’t be literal history…
    …therefore, Adam and Eve weren’t actual real people, therefore the “Original Sin” (whatever one thinks it is) didn’t actually happen, therefore Jesus’ “ransom sacrifice” wasn’t necessary…

    @Vidiot,

    Even if there was no 'original sin", you have your own sin that you have personal experience with. So, your logic is a non-sequitur.

    By the way, what makes you think Evolution is true? I put up several documented cases of substantial evolution fraud in previous posts aimed at deceiving the public in museums and universities.. Where is your outrage at those obvious deceptions? Do you want evolution to be true or do you want truth regardless?

    By the way, If you are a product of random mutations over billions or years, how could you be sure of what logic even is? Whey would it be the same in England as it is Hawaii? Why even ackknowledge known laws of logic if they are arbitrary. Logic itself is inconsistent with a naturalism wordview becuse it is conceptual, rooted in the nature of God.

    Christians have a basis of acknowledging logic because God is the source of all truth and we are made in his image. You have to borrow from the Christian worldview to even argue against it.

  • Disillusioned JW
    Disillusioned JW

    Vidiot I think Sea Breeze made an honest mistake in thinking you were referring to the Genesis chapter one account of creation (at least as part of what you meant) when you mentioned "Genesis-as-literal-history is too deeply baked into WT cosmology". After all, the Eden account is not cosmology (though it is a part of purported history), but the Genesis chapter one creation account is cosmology. Also to many creationists, the Genesis chapter one creation account is also history (that is, a history of the origin of the physical heavens [including sky, stars, sun, moon], Earth, and of biological life).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_cosmology says the following. "Religious cosmology is an explanation of the origin, evolution, and eventual fate of the universe from a religious perspective. This may include beliefs on origin in the form of a creation myth, subsequent evolution, current organizational form and nature, and eventual fate or destiny."

    https://www.britannica.com/question/How-is-astronomy-different-from-cosmology says the following. "stronomy is the study of objects and phenomena beyond Earth, whereas cosmology is a branch of astronomy that studies the origin of the universe and how it has evolved. For example, the big bang, the origin of the chemical elements, and the cosmic microwave background are all subjects of cosmology. However, other subjects such as extrasolar planets and stars in the present Milky Way Galaxy are not."

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cosmology gives the following definitions.

    "1

    a : a branch of metaphysics that deals with the nature of the universe b : a theory or doctrine describing the natural order of the universe 2 : a branch of astronomy that deals with the origin, structure, and space-time relationships of the universe also : a theory dealing with these matters"

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