Recent studies have shown that some modern hominids are particularly profecient at self deception, even proud of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeO0JlZsXio&t=59s
Early Hominem. Neanderthals. Evolution.
by solameguy12 49 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Sea Breeze
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TD
but I don't think the depicted photos of the skulls are to the same scale
You're right. --Best I could do with what I had.
The point was to show a morphological gradient separate from any claim of evolutionary relationship.
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peacefulpete
Man, I remember the arrogance of mocking stuff like those in that video. So much is assumed about the subject and so little respect given for the intelligence and integrity of science. The key words in the NOVA transcript are: This was a plaster cast of the pelvis. And that location of where 2 parts of the pelvis joined together was... broken into a series of individual pieces, which were then fused together in later fossilization.....they're in an anatomically impossible position.
He (Lovejoy) then removed the fragmented pieces and found the intact pieces naturally oriented at a more curved shape.
The speaker in that video made himself a fool by mocking that he could read a newspaper through the holes as if that was relevant. Of course there were holes! The area of the shattered pieces had been removed!
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Disillusioned JW
Thank you peacefulpete for your latest post, the one in which you commented about the video of the fossil skeleton named Lucy. More than once Sea Breeze has made a post in which he linked to the video in which a non-evolutionary creationist criticizes a portion of a paleontology video which aired on the science program named "NOVA". I addressed the matter in a different topic thread many months ago, but I didn't want to the make the effort to do so again. I am very glad you addressed the matter in this topic thread.
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truth_b_known
First, the Watchtower denies there are any other Homo species. I recall literature basically claiming the evidence of Homo species outside Homo Sapiens is extremely limited ("Doesn't fill the bottom of a funeral casket") and is all make-believe. So, that is the Watchtower.
There have been at least 6, maybe up to 21, species of human starting with Homo Erectus. Neanderthal is a recent species of human separate from Homo Sapiens (that's us). Homo Sapiens first appeared in Africa and the Middle East while Neanderthal first appeared in Eurasia.
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peacefulpete
Sea Breeze. Yes the understanding of homo sapiens and related species is expanding. Neanderthal DNA and recent discoveries have lead some scientists to recategorize them as a subspecies rather than separate species. The majority however feel the differences easily justify a distinct species.
The labeling conventions are not really relevant once again. It is only relevant if you want to argue about something.
Neanderthal and Sapien forms of homo (man) did on rare occasions interbreed but the populations largely remained separate for many many thousands of years. Eventually, as we know' Neanderthals were lost about 40,000 years ago leaving behind a small bit of DNA with their Sapien cousins.
BTW, I found it rather inconsistent on the web site you linked to accept the formation of a new "species" in a couple generations of finches through hybridization but insist Neanderthals and us to be same species. Sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing.
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Sea Breeze
PP,
Two chimps from the same tribe are further apart genetically that we are from Neanderthals. End of conversation. I am skeptical of "science" authority figures. May have something to do with the WT wiping out 5 genertions of my family with loads of arrogance and BS.. I don't know.
The sad fact is that their is a long history of missing link frauds that have been put forth by biased evolutionary advocates. If you had a friend who lied to you over and over again, eventually you just wouldn’t give much credibility to anything they said. The missing links put forth look real scientific and respectable with their big names like ardipithecus ramidus but dig a little deeper and you realize there isn’t any real support for what they are preaching. Here’s some more examples:
Ramapithecus, found in 1976, which was only the fragment of a jaw and several teeth was put forth as a missing link and turned out to be an orangutan.
Javaman or Homo Erectus was a Gibbon monkey skull and a human leg bone found 50 feet away by Eugène Dubois. This was a hoax which Eugène confessed to before he passed away. He had also found two human skulls right nearby which he had hidden in order to make his Homo Erectus fossil seem more plausible.
Piltdown Man was a human skull combined with the jaw of an orangutan collected in 1912 from a gravel pit at Piltdown, a village near Uckfield, East Sussex, in England. The teeth were filed down to make the fossil look more human. This was a fraud that fooled evolutionists for 40 years.
Nebraska Man was made up based off of one tooth found in 1921!! Turned out to be the tooth of an extinct pig.
These frauds are so preposterous it boggles my mind. But they linger in texbooks and museums for decades deceiving the public. Over and over, I have seen "scientists" falsify data.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POMjpTSk3no&t=121sThey just make stuff up and feel completely self-righteous in doing so. They know what is good for the rest of us.... kinda like like how we used to lie for the Watchtower. "No, we're not here to change your religion. We're just here to promote bible reading". We knew what was good for them, right?
It is not the early hominids we should be watching. The contemporary ones are much more interesting to study. They are known to lie, deceive and cheat. And, feel completely justified in doing so. -
Disillusioned JW
The history of Christianity contains a multitude of pious frauds (including fraudulent gospel accounts). If people apply Sea Breeze's line of reasoning pertaining about frauds to Christianity does that mean every Christian religious source should be suspect of being a fraud?
Nebraska Man was no fraud, but rather a misinterpretation. Some pig teeth are very similar to human teeth.
Ramapithecus was also no fraud, but rather a misinterpretation. It was not a modern species of orangutan, but instead a Sivapithecus (or a close evolutionary relation of such) and a possible ancestor of modern orangutans. See https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ramapithecus .
Homo erectus is no fraud; it was real. Numerous fossil skulls of that species exist.
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Sea Breeze's information source for the claim that "Two chimps from the same tribe are further apart genetically that we are from Neanderthals" was mentioned on page one of this topic thread. His source (like many of his claims pertaining to evolution) is a young Earth creationist site. The claim is true (see below) but the creationist site incorrectly claims it is a problem for evolution. [Evidence that the site is creationist is the following. Its About page (at https://kgov.com/about-bob-enyart-live-and-real-science-radio ) makes that very clear. There it says the following. "KGOV.com is the web home of the long-running conservative talk radio show Bob Enyart Live, and of Theology Thursday and the creation-evolution program Real Science Radio. .... By our estimation, the twelve most significant contributions to the world that this radio program and our Denver Bible Church have made include: ... Young Earth: Our teaching on the young earth, on dinosaur soft tissue, and on the evidence against the big bang ".] The site is not credible in regards to some of their statements about science (though many of their announcements of science news reports are accurate), of which the following is one example from https://kgov.com/most-informative-neanderthal-show-ever-with-jack-cuozzo . "The young age of the earth, and that life had to be specially created because it is information based, prove that Man was specially created and that there never was such a thing as an ape/human ancestor."
Even though the claim that "Two chimps from the same tribe are further apart genetically that we are from Neanderthals" is true, I don't have a problem with that claim. A big reason why I don't have a problem with it is because scientists say that humankind experienced a major genetic bottleneck tens of thousands of years ago due to most of humankind dying off at that time. Scientists say that bottleneck sharply reduced the genetic variation of humankind. This has been known for more than a decade and has been made known by scientists who are convinced of evolution. See https://www.science.org/content/article/how-we-lost-our-diversity (which has an article called "How We Lost Our Diversity: Human ancestors survived two genetic bottlenecks as they spread out of Africa') and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2842629/ (which has an article called "Evidence that two main bottleneck events shaped modern human genetic diversity'). Both articles were published in the year 2009. The first article says the following.
"Modern humans are a lot alike--at least at the genetic level--compared with other primates. If you compare any two people from far-flung corners of the globe, their genomes will be much more similar than those of any pair of chimpanzees, gorillas, or other apes from different populations. Now, evolutionary geneticists have shown that our ancestors lost much of their genetic diversity in two dramatic bottlenecks that sharply squeezed down the population of modern humans as they moved out of Africa between 60,000 and 50,000 years ago.
... One model proposes that genetic diversity was lost in two distinct bottlenecks, where groups of hundreds or thousands of migrating people were quickly decimated by disease, starvation, warfare, or some other cause, dramatically reducing the number of adults who bore children that survived. Another suggests that genetic diversity was reduced in a stepwise fashion as an initial group of about 100,000 or so people moved out around the globe, gradually leaving behind more and more people in settlements along the way."
Note that evolutionist scientists have not been hiding the information that modern humans are more alike genetically than any two chimps. Furthermore, the scientists say why this the case and the explanation is consistent with evolution!
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Vidiot
The Org can never budge on evolution.
Genesis-as-literal-history is too deeply baked into WT cosmology.
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Vidiot
And they definitely can’t come right out and bluntly say “oops, we were wrong”.
Doing so would too deeply undermine their claims of God’s exclusive favour.