Is the baby being thrown out with the bath water?

by Chap 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Chap

That chap at Waco didn't God speak to him? You know, the guy who had sex with 10 yr olds. He even convinced the men to be celibate, while he fathered children with their wives and their children

outoftheorg, (N/C for sp correction.)
Is what this guy did similar to the teachings of Jesus or how Jesus lived his life?
Saint Satan, if people were not out for themselves and wanting to glorify themselves rather than God, God should only have to speak to one person or a select few. If men didn't lie, there would be no doubt that God spoke to these men. The fact that we can't trust others proves the futility of trusting in men rather than trusting in God.
Gumby said,
He never commanded that a book be combined and added to the old Testemant for the rest of the world to live by.
The Revelation quote was Jesus commanding John to write to the churches the events of the future. It is not written where God told people to write the New Testament but here is something else to look at.
John 16:12-15 King James Version
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. [13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. [14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Why would the Holy Spirit reveal (shew) the truth to people but not have the people tell others about what the Holy Spirit said?
Folks are wise to require convincing evidence of a claim before believing it.
The Israelites thought the same thing.
Deut. 18:21-22
And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? [22] When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
So how were some books included and others excluded from the Old Testament? One of the quickest way for someone's writings to be excluded is when a person said or wrote of a prophesy that did not happen the way he said. The writers of the Old Testament usually wrote of near term prophesy as well as distant prophesy. If the near term prophesy didn't come true, the writings were excluded. The penalty for being a false prophet was death.
If you disagree with most scholars as the dates of the books of the Old Testament so they were written after the "supposed" prophesy took place, than in my mind, there is no way for you to distinguish truth from error in which books are "inspired" by God. As far as I know, Christianity is the only religion where the writings to be followed contain prophesy. I know the Koran doesn't contain any except the self fulfilling one.
rem

So how were some books included and others excluded from the Old Testament? One of the quickest way for someone's writings to be excluded is when a person said or wrote of a prophesy that did not happen the way he said. The writers of the Old Testament usually wrote of near term prophesy as well as distant prophesy. If the near term prophesy didn't come true, the writings were excluded. The penalty for being a false prophet was death.

Well, then they certainly missed a few books! There are plenty of unfulfilled prophecies in the bible.
If you disagree with most scholars as the dates of the books of the Old Testament so they were written after the "supposed" prophesy took place, than in my mind, there is no way for you to distinguish truth from error in which books are "inspired" by God.
"Most Scholars"? I suppose if you only read the work of Christian Fundamentalists it is easy to get that impression.
As far as I know, Christianity is the only religion where the writings to be followed contain prophesy. I know the Koran doesn't contain any except the self fulfilling one.
Sure the bible contains prophecy, but are they fulfilled? I haven't seen any good ones yet.
rem
Satanus

Chap
if people were not out for themselves and wanting to glorify themselves rather than God, God should only have to speak to one person or a select few. If men didn't lie, there would be no doubt that God spoke to these men. The fact that we can't trust others proves the futility of trusting in men rather than trusting in God.
You sound really confused. On the one hand, you say we should only need to listen some guy or group of guys to whom god has spoken. On the other hand, you also say that we shouldn't trust men. Can you make up your mind?
Now, if i took to heart your last three words, then i would do as my question suggested: wait for god to speak to me.
SS
pseudoxristos

Chap,
Many that have really looked into the Bible and its claim to inspiration, have not only thrown out the baby with the bath water, but have thrown out the tub as well.
As far as I'm concerned the problems of God and his inspired "Word", far out weigh the few questions that remain once you dismiss him and his so-called writings. The few remaining questions such as, “how did we get here?” and “what is our purpose?” are very significant, but they pale in comparison to the multitude of questions that arise when one attempts to undertake a exhaustive study of the origin of the Bible.
Starting with the Book of Genesis, the two Creation accounts immediately raise some serious questions. Not to mention the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the numerous didographies, the countless absurdities and finally ending with the questions of authorship. Moving on to the book of Exodus, we have a couple of million people wondering in the wilderness for forty years. The logistics problem that this created is unimaginable. I could go on and on about the OT, but moving to the NT, the synoptic gospels raise enough issues to make anybody question their inspiration.
Oh, yeah, we can’t forget about the Apocrypha, the Pseudepigrapha, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library. The Israelites were very active in producing what they thought was God’s word. Today Christians use just a fraction of these writings
I don’t know about you, but I tend to believe that the simpler solution is usually more accurate. With my present belief system (or non-belief) there are just a few simple (but significant) questions that remain unanswered. I don’t foresee that I will ever find the answers, but I am much more comfortable with these than the countless other questions I had as a believer.
pseudo
Holey_Cheeses*King_of_the juice.

Chap,
Remember that the good book says that you should put your faith in cheeses.
cheeses - who always puts the bathwater through a sieve to avoid throwing out the baby. Already lost one this way and it was difficult to explain to the wife what happened.
Cheeses (of the-one-who-walks-on-bathwater-class)
anglise

Dont wish to upset too many but....
There is no baby in the bathwater.
Anglise
rocketman

As far as I'm concerned the problems of God and his inspired "Word", far out weigh the few questions that remain once you dismiss him and his so-called writings. The few remaining questions such as, “how did we get here?” and “what is our purpose?” are very significant, but they pale in comparison to the multitude of questions that arise when one attempts to undertake a exhaustive study of the origin of the Bible.
This was a problem I always had too. The Bible has always, for me, raised more questions than it answered, as pseudo pointed out.
Francois

What's your point there, Chap?
francois
funkyderek

If God spoke to a man and told him to write down what he said, how are we to distinguish this writing from other people who say God spoke to them?

A very good question, Chap. It should be very very easy to tell the difference between something written by the almighty omniscient creator of the universe and something written by primitive nomads trying to explain the world around them.
We know the human beings can lie about anything for any reason.
Correct, which is why extraordinary claims such as "this is the word of God" should be strenuously tested, and never ever accepted without extraordinary evidence.
If a writing supposedly contains prophesy, some say it wasn't prophesy and was written after the fact.
Of course. This is one example of the testing process I mentioned above. Predicting the future is an extraordinary claim. It requires extraordinary evidence. If no copies of the "prophecy" exist that were written before the events they supposedly predicted, then we must assume that the prophecy is a fake. (A god who could make the prediction could make sure the prediction survives)
If something was written one hundred years ago and was considered correct in the sciences of the time, it would probably be thrown out today.
Correct. The knowledge we have now shows some of our former beliefs were incorrect. The beauty of science is that incorrect theories are always eventually discarded.
Things we know to be true today will change just like they always have as far as the sciences are concerned.
Correct again, although most fundamentals will remain the same or change only slightly. New theories will explain things we don't yet understand, and situations we haven't yet encountered.
If God spoke to you about how things came into being, would he have to lie to you in order for you to believe him because of what you consider to be scientific fact?
No but I'd be very disappointed if he gave me some fairy tale like the one in the bible. I'd expect some fairly tricky physics and hopefully a theory of everything.
demar

well first of all God is not giving any new revelation to anyone. Hebrews says"In these last days he has spoken by his Son. The bible is the complete authorative word of God. God doesn't have to speak audibly because he has put everything we need to know in scripture. Now how do we know if someone is speaking for God? Well we compare what they say to scripture. If it contradicts scripture we know its a lie. The bible says men wrote as they were moved(inspired) by the Holy Spirit. It also says that God is the author of scripture not man. That no prophecy of scripture orginated in man but came from God. Now you and I know that there is no way a man can predict events 100's and even 1000's of years before it happens! Yet even by secular history the bible has been proved true. Only someone who is omniscient and all powerful would no things before it happens. Hey most of you people who don't believe the bible have a problem with your will. Its not that you can't believe its that you won't believe. Before you downtalk something why not check the evidence. Pick up a bible and read

Is the baby being thrown out with the bath water?

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