Something for france to think about

by pr_capone 32 Replies latest jw friends

  • joannadandy
    joannadandy

    The thing that bothers me the most about threads like this, and the general tone of war discussions is that "you're either for us, or against us". The world dosen't run in black and white. As others have pointed out, these are two entirely different conflicts.

    Doesn't anyone think it's possible that France can be greatful, (hell they have memorials all over the place--if they didn't care, they wouldn't have built them, incidentaly we in America don't even have a substantial WWII memorial yet) and yet still think a modern action/policy by the United States is wrong?

    By way of a flippant example, if a republican saves my life, do I have to become one? Can't I be thankful, and still fundamentally disagree about things with that person?

  • Simon
    Simon

    America only faught in WWII when it was attacked. Up till then, it didn't fight and sat on it's arse while the rest of the free word spilt blood.

    France was occupied by the Nazis ... do you imagine this was some sort of picnic? They suffered and you think you suffered more ...

    Now, you want to use this as some sort of justification for any action? No one is allowed to decide whether a 'cause is right or not ... we have to support it "because America say's so"?

    Sorry, this is not the sort of freedom we faught for.

    Your homework for today is to research the date the war started.

  • Realist
    Realist
    America only faught in WWII when it was attacked. Up till then, it didn't fight and sat on it's arse while the rest of the free word spilt blood.

    one has to admit that the US gov. did everything to get attacked. the damn facists just didn'T do it!

  • mattnoel
    mattnoel

    Ah well thats bloody France for you - how do you think us brits feel, I went to the coast today and can see the French coastline, that was bad enough, but then on the way home, see a coach full of bloody froggie kids.

    Its not just you america that is fed up with them - its us aswell, just be glad you dont have a tunnel joining your country to theirs !

    Did anyone hear aswell that Chirac had to apologise to Blair as British Wargraves there had been desecrated with slogans such as "you will die in iraq" !!!!

  • Realist
    Realist

    matt,

    hmmmm so you hate the french and the french hate you? scary!

    do you know any french people? could you imagine to fall in love with a french girl?

    this hate talk is quite primitive.

  • Xena
    Xena
    Where have all the cowboys gone?

    You know I had something sarcastic and bitch written here, but then I realized it would do no good and would just demean me... People have left this forum over this type of thing....but some of you just keep on with these comments...I just don't get that I have to be right and grind your face in it at any cost mentality.... Says a lot more about you than you think.

  • gitasatsangha
    gitasatsangha
    Where have all the cowboys gone?

    This sums it up perfectly. In the warhawks moment of victory it is realized nothign at all was won. The writing is already on the wall. Iraq will fall to the Shite fanatics. Baghdad, the pinnacle of science and literature in the middle ages, will become another Herat.

    Warhawks, live it up. Party. You got what you wanted. Gas is 5 cents lower at the pump for awhile.

  • foreword
    foreword

    Yes it does say a lot about me.

    For starters, I don't care who would've started this war, I would've found reasons to oppose it. If you read this thread, you'll notice that a lot of people died through war. Isn't that reason enough to oppose it. I just can't imagine that simply because you want to rid the earth of one man or a group of men, you have to go around killing people to do it. Do it if you feel you have a right to, but target your victims carefully, and leave the innocents out of it. Especially these days when wars are fought because decision makers can't get along, and for the sole purpose of money. I say, let those idiots fight it out between themselves.

    In Kuwait, it was different. They had been invaded by an enemy they couldn't defeat and needed help. The US came in, backed off Iraq, and that was that. Plus the world community supported the idea.

    But this time you are the aggressors, the whole world agrees to that. Even the Iraqis you have liberated want you out of there. In regards to democracy, will you respect their wishes. You have blown their whole history to pieces. If you would've done it that way for me, i'd be pissed off too. Also, you have hidden the true reasons to why you are there, everyone knows that also.

    But then you have those who wish to prove to themselves that they have a legal right for this war, which they don't, by denigrating those who oppose it through a guilt trip of disappreciation of what was done to them in the past by way of help in being liberated. This thread is an example.

    At least the French had the common sense to say...."maybe there's another way". The whole world wanted to try a different approach, but you refused to listen to the voice of the majority, in a democratic way and you think I'll be sympathetic to your cause. The French simply voiced what others were afraid to say because the US is a powerful nation, and sadly, the effects of this will be felt by the French for a while.

    For those who leave the forum because of this, well....if the truth is too much for you I'm sorry, but I won't wear white gloves to voice my opinions. I was pretty new to forums such as these, and I noticed that personal attacks can include attacks towards a group and I have toned down a bit.

    There are many threads I don't read because the topic doesn't interest me. It's not really hard to avoid threads, just don't bring your cursor there.

    Maybe you'll say..."wars have little to do with JW"...true....but the same applies to threads on sports and entertainment, ect.

    If someone tries to push down my throat wickedness what ever the subject is, just as the government of the US is doing, anyone supporting the idea will get my point of view on the issue. It just happens that today, I think this war is pretty stupid and an insult to humanity.

  • Max Divergent
    Max Divergent
    Read your history my man..... Canada, in regards to population to military ratios made bigger sacrifices than you guys

    You're missing the point, probably deliberatley. Unlike the US, Canada is not being severly critisied by France for liberating Iraq because they didn't liberate Iraq.

    Three countries liberated Iraq with troops on the ground, but both Canada and France were missing - they were harping from the sidelines and positivley obstructing the effort in the UN.

    So what has Canada's notable contribution to WWI/II (and other conflicts) got to do with liberating Iraq? Sweet FA, except to condemn the current generation.

    You're just having a nationalistic spray IMO.

    Max

    (In any case, the dubious honour of the highest per-capita casualty rates (at least for WWI, maybe for WWII as well) goes to a country that, unlike Canada, is still fighting with men and guns and ships and planes to liberate and rebuild Iraq - so your point is well and truly lost)

  • Max Divergent
    Max Divergent
    Doesn't anyone think it's possible that France can be greatful, (hell they have memorials all over the place--if they didn't care, they wouldn't have built them

    It seems not...

    February 23, 2002, http://old.smh.com.au/news/0202/23/world/world25.html

    A runway over our fallen soldiers

    A planned French airport will cover Australia's war dead in tarmac and concrete, Paul Daley reports.

    It has been labelled "the airport of shame", and when the bulldozers move in they will be digging into what could easily be considered a sacred site of Australian military history.

    Vermandovilliers owes its survival to the Australian military. In the late summer of 1918 it suffered 6000 casualties in four days as Australian troops forced the German army back across the Somme's quagmire.

    That sacrifice could not be more revered by the town. A sign on Vermandovilliers' town hall reminds that the Australian Army's Lawrence Dominic McCarthy won the Victoria Cross there on August 23, 1918, when he "single-handedly captured 460 metres of German trench line".

    There can be little doubt that the Somme and the battles for Ypres, in Belgium, were as formative as Anzac Cove, even though they may not have etched themselves so deeply into Australia's psyche.

    [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    The fight for Vermandovilliers played a critical part in the battle of Villers-Bretonneux, in which more than 12,000 Australians were killed. Many of the dead are buried in Commonwealth War Cemeteries, but thousands remain interred in the muddy earth under potato crops.

    This site and those surrounding are sacred for all nations involved in World War I, but they could soon disappear under tarmac and concrete.

    The developers of France's proposed new four-runway international airport and associated road systems want to build on a swathe of the Somme's battlefields, up to five war cemeteries and countless unmarked graves.

    The airport, which will service 20 million commuters a year by 2015, is being presented as a fait accompli. It will, according to French Prime Minister-cum-presidential hopeful Lionel Jospin, definitely be built on the Somme - a flat expanse 90 kilometres from Paris, a 90-minute drive from Brussels and (eventually) a short train ride from Britain.

    France has not publicly released any plans, and has informally signalled that while the runways and support buildings could be moved a few kilometres here or there, the project will go ahead.

    This is not only bad news for Vermandovilliers, it also creates huge uncertainty for residents of other villages such as Belloy, Lihons, Chaulnes and Rosieres-en-Sainte. There are dozens of marked Australian and New Zealand graves at cemeteries in these towns, and 66 Australians are buried in a Commonwealth War Graves Commission cemetery at Rosieres.

    Dozens more are buried in marked graves at communal Commonwealth war cemeteries at Chaulnes and in marked graves under anonymous headstones at a plethora of small cemeteries around the proposed airport site.

    The movement of marked graves, the desecration of such important battlefields and the inevitability that thousands of unmarked graves will be built over, has prompted prominent French war historian Jean des Cars to label the project "the airport of shame".

    "Will the [French] Government have the indecency to profane the rest and eternal peace of thousands of men to whom we owe our existence?" he asks.

    The Herald has obtained a copy of the preliminary airport plans. They show that besides the airport proper, much of the land for kilometres around the massive construction has been rezoned to industrial.

    This raises the prospect of the demolition of further towns and the relocation of many more war cemeteries to make way for airport infrastructure such as hotels and shopping centres.

    The French Government has conceded that a small British cemetery at Rosieres (where there are six unidentified Commonwealth soldiers buried among 60 British) will have to be relocated.

    It agrees that a French cemetery with more than 2000 graves and a German cemetery with 22,000 graves will also have to go.

    British historian Paul Reed, who lives on a farm close to Vermandovilliers, conducts tours of the Western Front battlefields of Belgium and France. He believes the airport will "damage this place beyond recognition".

    "It's the part of the battlefields that has the most Australian visitors, and the battlefields that will be built over are among the most historically important for Australia," he says.

    "There is no doubt the airport site is littered with bodies, perhaps thousands of them, of all nationalities, from all over the Commonwealth, including potentially large numbers of Australians."

    Mr Reed says that while British service groups and the British Government have vocally opposed the development and planned freeway extension across battlefields near Ypres, he has been surprised at Australia's inaction on the issue.

    "There's a growing awareness in Australia about what's happening, although I don't know how much awareness compared to Britain," he says.

    The French Government has assured Australia that no Australian cemeteries will be affected but the Federal Government is deeply concerned about the proposals.

    A spokeswoman for the Assistant Defence Minister, Dana Vale, said the minister had asked the Office of Australian War Graves to "monitor the proposals closely to ensure she is aware of any impact on Australian war dead by future or associated developments".

    The spokeswoman said there were "no Australians buried at the two locations [cemeteries] that may be affected".

    But she also pointed out: "The battlefields themselves are the resting place of many who fell and have no known grave.

    "If the remains of any Australian soldiers are uncovered from an unmarked grave or battlefield, we will ensure they are treated with all the sensitivity and reverence due to one of our fallen heroes."

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