Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 91 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Acluetofindtheuser

    So you're saying the anointed are like the tribe of Levi and the rest of the christians with the earthly hope are likened to the 11 other tribes of Israel?

    Can an anointed one of the 144,000 materialize in human form as they please when they visit the earth in the paradise?

    How is an anointed one of the 144,000 going to fix the planet's destructive nature with the deadly storms and earth quakes? Are they going to get quick physics lessons from God or Jesus on how to change the nature of the atmosphere and the geology of the ground? This sounds like that knowledge is way above their pay grade.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    A baby doesn't have to do anything to be "born". It's the parents who did the "something", not the kid.


    Being born again involves grace and faith.... "by grace through faith". One is the work of God, the other is the work of man. Babies are obviously incapable of belief or faith. So, I fail to see much of a correlation in your analogy. But, here's rub. When we choose to believe Jesus, there is an automatic cost involved.

    The Romans brought a great deal of law and order to many lands. It wasn't perfect by any means, but at least there was a template for relative peace. What was the cost? It was the Roman tax. It was only a small percentage of your income. In return, you got a Roman garrison and a legion if necessary to quell invading armies, maurading bands, murderers etc. It was called the "Roman Peace" or Pax Romana. If you paid the tax, you got peace.

    Everyone in the Roman empire was very familiar with this cost for peace. Indeed, even Jesus reccommended that people pay the tax. It is with this familiar scenario where a percentage of your income is paid in exchange for peace that Jesus lays out his terms for peace as earth's newly arrived King.

    Luke 14: 31 “Or what king, going to wage war against another king, does not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Otherwise, while the other is yet at a distance, he sends a delegation and requests conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, any of you who does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

    This must have been shocking to people who were used to only paying a percentage of their works in exchange for peace... For Jesus, the true cost wasn't 25% or 50% or even 95%. His stated terms for peace was very simple: ALL OF IT.

    To be born again, it will cost you all of your pride, all of your works, possibly all of your family, certainly all of your dignity as you look to a cursed man hanging on a tree for salvation.

    This is Jesus' terms for peace and a prerequisite for being born again. Once this transaction between Jesus and the believer has been conducted, the believer is born again with a new spirit. A spirit which cannot sin. Because of this new spirit, the believer possesses a "knowing" that he will live as long as Jesus lives. The two destinies are eternally entertwined together and a person can absolutely know that they are saved.

    Only then can a person let loose and allow themselves to absorb the full implications of eternal consciousness.

    Are you born again Easy Prompt?

  • EasyPrompt
    "So you're saying the anointed are like the tribe of Levi and the rest of the christians with the earthly hope are likened to the 11 other tribes of Israel?"

    Levi was one of the worst sons of Jacob. Levi's kids had to work at the temple, doing a job that really wasn't "glorious" when you look at what it entailed. Kind of like working in a kitchen today. Jehovah used one of the lowest members of Jacob's family to show that if he can love the lowly ones, how much more he loves the rest.

    Revelation doesn't say that all the anointed are like Levi. The illustration in Revelation says that figuratively speaking, the 144,000 come out of all of Israel, a representative sample. "Israel" means "Contenders with God". All Christians contend for the blessing alongside God. Those who end up with that priest-assignment are not necessarily more spiritual or more intelligent or more anything just like Levi wasn't more spiritual than his brothers the rest of Israel/Jacob...the 144,000 are just a representative sample of all Christians "out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation."

    "Can an anointed one of the 144,000 materialize in human form as they please when they visit the earth in the paradise?"

    Romans 6:5

    "If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection."

    1 Corinthians 15:48,49

    "Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one."

    Did Jesus materialize a body and hang out with his buddies? Yes.

    1 Corinthians 15:4-6

    "...he was raised up on the third day according to the Scriptures; and that he appeared to Ceʹphas, and then to the Twelve. After that he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time..."

    The scriptures show that, yes, the anointed will be able to materialize and hang out on earth and visit in the paradise. In fact, their assignment necessitates that they be here.

    "How is an anointed one of the 144,000 going to fix the planet's destructive nature with the deadly storms and earth quakes? Are they going to get quick physics lessons from God or Jesus on how to change the nature of the atmosphere and the geology of the ground? This sounds like that knowledge is way above their pay grade."

    Does a baby need a lesson on how to breathe before it comes out of the womb? No. A baby is created with marvelous engineering. One moment it is getting oxygen through the umbilical cord of its mother. The next moment the heart changes gears and the lungs breathe in for the first time. It is instantaneous and no lesson is needed. A butterfly does not need a lesson on how to fly, even though it's never flown before. Jehovah Causes to Become.

    If He can help a newborn baby know what to do without any lessons and a bug with a pin head know how to fly, He can help those other ones do what they need to do at the appointed time. If you could stop a storm, would you do it? If you could heal a kid, would you do it? Peter and Paul didn't need a lesson on healing when they were given the power to do it. They just did it.

    Job 42:1-3

    "Then Job said in reply to Jehovah:

    “Now I know that you are able to do all things

    And that nothing you have in mind to do is impossible for you.

    You said, ‘Who is this who is obscuring my counsel without knowledge?’

    Therefore I spoke, but without understanding

    About things too wonderful for me, which I do not know."

  • aqwsed12345


    Obviously, what has not been revealed already to Adam, cannot exist, what kind of stupid argument is this? Eternal damnation is explicitly taught in the Bible, compare: Deut 32:22, Is 33:11.14, Is 66:24, Dan 12:2, Psalm 21:10, Mt 8:12; Mt 25:41, Mt 25:46, Mt 3:12; Mk 9:43-49, Lk 3:16-17, Lk 13:28, Rom 2,6-9, 2Tess 1:6-9, 2Pt 2:4, Rev 14:11, Rev 20:10.15


    I see that you have retained even the only teaching of the WTS that really only they hold: the two-class doctrine of "salvation". On the other hand, in the New Testament there are not two separate classes of salvation, all believers are called to one hope (Ephesians 4:4), as soon as a baptized person is born again, and so on. How absurd that even 1 Corinthians 15:51, which you quoted, says "we will all be changed", but you think that this is not about "all", but only some privileged class within the faithful. There is no such thing as "anointed class" and "Jonadab class", there are the faithful who were baptized and became children of God. Please read these about this disgusting doctrine:

  • EasyPrompt
    Ecclesiastes 9:5 says: "the dead know nothing at all"

    punkofnice said: "Some living people a pretty stupid too."

    SeaBreeze said: "Are you born again Easy Prompt?"

    Why do you ask, SeaBreeze? Are you starting a club? Or are you on a special quest?

    "I don't think he'll be interested...he's already got one!"🤣

  • EasyPrompt

    Vanderhoven7 has eyes of faith, that is why he can see what some others here cannot.

    aqwsed12345 and SeaBreeze, When you read the scriptures, you see darkness because that is what is in your heart - darkness.

    Matthew 6:23

    "If the light that is in you is really darkness, how great that darkness is!"

    1 John 1:5

    "This is the message that we heard from him and are announcing to you: God is light, and there is no darkness at all in him."

    aqwsed12345 and SeaBreeze, You think God is some kind of torturer. You are in darkness. When you say you are "born again" and now perfect you are lying.

    1 John 1:6

    "If we make the statement, “We are having fellowship with him,” and yet we go on walking in the darkness, we are lying and are not practicing the truth."

    aqwsed12345 and SeaBreeze, You say you do not sin because you are "born again" but the scriptures say you are lying if you say that too.

    1 John 1:8

    "If we make the statement, “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us."

    When you make your many accusations about clinging to false doctrines and preconceived notions, you are just betraying what is going on in your own hearts.

    Jesus says to "born again" Christians at Revelation 3:19 "All those for whom I have affection, I reprove and discipline. So be zealous and repent." Your "spirit" is not perfect.

    You would be wise to listen to Jesus' counsel.

    Revelation 3:17,18

    "Because you say, “I am rich and have acquired riches and do not need anything at all,” but you do not know that you are miserable and pitiful and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may become dressed and that the shame of your nakedness may not be exposed, and eyesalve to rub in your eyes so that you may see."

    Love is golden. You are lacking love. God is Love. If you think He is a torturer, then you don't know anything at all.

  • vienne

    Either Ecclesiastes is inspired or not. You cant have it both ways. If inspired, it is the inerrant word of God. If not, your Bible is corrupt and the whole falls with the part. If inspired, then the dead truly know not anything, or Holy Spirit lied.

    Your attempt at emulating Jesuitical thought is exceedingly poor.

  • Vanderhoven7

    Hi AQ

    What about the following manufactured conversation irked you?

    "And Jehovah said to Adam, "You have eaten the fruit whereof I said you should not eat. Now your body must die and turn to dust, but your eternal soul will be tormented in hell until you are resurrected and cast into a batholith of brimstone to be really tormented, body and soul for all eternity!" And Adam said, I wish you had never created me." And God said, "I understand, but you are only getting what you deserve as I explained to you before you ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge. And in your unbearable suffering I am glorified... but take heart, you won't suffer alone"

    <<Obviously, what has not been revealed already to Adam, cannot exist, what kind of stupid argument is this? >>

    What kind of a "stupid" argument did Elijah present when he suggested that the false prophets shout louder because Baal might be off doing his business?

    What is wrong with the argument itself? If Jehovah had actually said this to Adam, would something he said be in error according to your view? Do billions of people screaming in the eternal lake of fire not glorify God?

    By the way, eternal torment of human beings is not taught anywhere in scripture. Let's go over your eternal torment verses one by one.

  • enoughisenough

    easyprompt --you wrote only those in marrage with the lamb need to partake of emblems....I beg to differ. That is JW teaching ...You really need to compare the scriptures without JW filters on. Luke 22:20, Mark 14:22 and Matt 26:28 ...the new covenant wasn't about a covenant for only 144000 as JW teach... the new covenant is for forgiveness of sins for the MANY. Jesus disciples also already knew they were going to be part of a kingdom-they were arguing about which one of them would be the greatest.

  • EasyPrompt

    Hi, enoughisenough🙂

    I don't think anybody is "sinning" against anyone if they choose to partake or not. But as far as the scriptural precedent, when Moses installed the priests, he didn't spatter the blood on the whole nation, just on those who would be serving as priests. When he made sacrifices for the installment of the priests, it wasn't all the people that ate from it, it was just those who were being installed as priests.

    Exodus 29:31-33

    "You will take the ram of installation and boil its flesh in a holy place. Aaron and his sons will eat the flesh of the ram and the bread that is in the basket at the entrance of the tent of meeting. They are to eat the things with which atonement was made to install them as priests and to sanctify them. But an unauthorized person may not eat them, for they are something holy."

    The high priest made atonement for the entire nation, but the installment sacrifices were specific to those serving as priests.

    Jesus' sacrifice makes atonement for everybody, but the specific covenant put in place during the Lord's Evening Meal is only needed for those who will serve as priests, those who need to be a new creation to do that assignment.

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