Ecclesiastes 9:5 -"the dead know nothing at all"

by aqwsed12345 91 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @EasyPrompt,

    I couldn't help but notice that your posts are completely void of any attempt to address the many scriptures I provided that challenge your assumptions.

    I know this is uncomfortable for you. It's supposed to be. Once the WT lies are irradicated, a person will naturally want to seek safety in the way prescribed in scripture - getting born again.

    John 3 - "[Nicodemus] came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him." Just being impressed with Jesus isn't enough for eternal life. Salvation is not an intellectual exercise. You cannot get to where you need to go using intellect alone. Jesus explains:

    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Three times in the conversation Jesus tells Nicodemus that a person must be born again. This requires abandonment of your first birth and all the works from the first life as well:

    Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. - Romans 4


  • enoughisenough
    enoughisenough

    If I were to narrow this subject down, I would say you either believe Satan's lie that you won't die, therefore you or a part of you goes on living consciously somewhere, or you believe that you return to dust, knowing nothing until the the last day when resurrected. Job 14:14 If a man dies, can he live again? I will wait all the day of my compulosry service until my relief comes. ( he didn't say if a man dies that is is really still alive) Dan12:2 And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up....( are you conscious of what is going on around you when asleep.) Dan 12:13 ...you will rest, but you will stand up for you lot at the end of the days. Jesus also likened death to sleep. People will say of the dead, " rest in peace" or "they aren't suffering anymore" and at the same time say ,"mother is in heaven watching over me" ( can't be both )

  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt

    John 3 - "[Nicodemus] came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him." Just being impressed with Jesus isn't enough for eternal life. Salvation is not an intellectual exercise. You cannot get to where you need to go using intellect. Jesus explains:

    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


    Have you ever had a baby, SeaBreeze?


    A baby doesn't have to do anything to be "born". It's the parents who did the "something", not the kid.


    Do we need to have a "birds-and-bees" conversation?

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    People will say of the dead, " rest in peace" or "they aren't suffering anymore" and at the same time say ,"mother is in heaven watching over me" ( can't be both )

    @enoughisenough

    Sure they can. And the reason is that they believe the bible where it describes man as a tripartite being in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 & Hebrews 4:12.

    When Christians die, they are quite literally in two places at the same time. The body is decaying in the earth and the spirit/soul is with the Lord.

    "absent from the body, present with the Lord"

    The redifinitions installed by the WT are very hard to get rid of. That is why they call it a cult.

    Again, I'm not saying that you or anyone else has to believe the bible. But you should take the time to understand what you are rejecting to see if it is really your wish to do so and not just some default response to deception.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @enoughisenough

    The Satanic claim "you will not surely die" (Genesis 3:4) has nothing to do with the immortality of the soul. God proposed here that if they break His command, then "in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die." From this, it is apparent that here "you will die" did not refer to the literal, physical death, but the consequence of it, that man will die, or (his body) will return to the dust. Here, the word "death" does not refer to physical death but spiritual death, separation from God, and loss of grace.

    "In the day that you sin, you will die" - When you sin, I will take away my grace, eternal life, and you will die.

    When Satan says, "you will not surely die," he means, "Just go ahead and sin; God will not fulfill His threat (he's just bluffing)."

    Then the "dispute" with Satan was not about the immortality of the soul but whether humanity will lose God's special privilege that the human body is free from the compulsion of death. God warned Adam not to eat from 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil', or he would die on that day (Gen 2:17). Adam and Eve ate from it anyway, but did not die a biological death >on that day<, as they lived much longer (Gen 5:5). Adam, however, lost fellowship with God (he was driven out of Eden) and eternal life (he could no longer eat from the tree of life, Gen 3:23-24). Adam's (man's) death on "that day" was spiritual-religious death (cf. Eph 2:1), which led to biological death. So the "death" with which God threatens man is twofold: the death of supernatural life (i.e., loss of sanctifying grace) and [as a result] the mortal transformation of the body: before the Fall, man could have not died; since then, man cannot not die.

    This of course is avoided by the Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation, and they want to explain away the "day" here as exactly a thousand years. But why would it be a thousand years "on that day"? I know there's a biblical statement, "With the Lord, a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day" (2 Peter 3:8), but that doesn't make it applicable here (this is a leap in logic), so this is entirely a leap of logic. Also, we know that this is metaphorical language, illustrating that God is outside time, and before Him, a day is not literally exactly a thousand years but eternity.

    The Peter's part (which I say again, they arbitrarily tie together with the Moses' part using biblical leap logic) is obviously only symbolic: especially since the context does not explain how Adam "died" >that day<, but why the Last Judgment day is delaying in human terms, the answer: because in God's view our "time" is just a moment. "A thousand years" is an ancient analogy: a very long time.

    And then, as I mentioned, the subject of the debate was not whether man has an immortal soul but whether he will die physically (i.e., whether God will carry out the threat, or be afraid that man has become like God, autonomous, or self-legislating).

    So if we insist on taking the bodily death on that day literally, as Jehovah's Witnesses do, but rule out the false excuse, then Satan would be right: man did not die that day but lived much longer.

    Also, since this is relevant to the topic, I'll mention that Jehovah's Witnesses often point out that why death would be a punishment if their souls would live on in heaven. But the question is inherently flawed, since we don't say that. Even then, it wouldn't be a punishment, a shame that this hypothetical scenario has nothing to do with what we teach. Just at first glance:

    1. The first human pair's soul did not go to heaven, THEN when they died. So this is about the Old Testament, the deceased before Christianity. Before Christ's redemption, heaven was closed; then the deceased were all together in the underworld (in Sheol) in a joyless, sad existence, even if they were chosen for eternal bliss. Though separate from the damned (cf. Ez 32:17-32), this place - like a vestibule of hell - was not a place of joy but of silent sorrow, where they did not even praise God. This differs entirely from heaven, which only Christ opened through His death on the cross. From then on, death became joy, and from then on, the dead saints praise God, and from then on, they can intercede for us. So it did not yet happen that Christ "ascended on high, leading a host of captives" (Eph 4:8)
    2. We do not say that the role of heaven is that man lives there eternally without a body, like a spiritual being. Because heaven here does not mean a spiritual realm but a state of cosmic glorification.
    3. We also confess the resurrection of the body. Immortality and resurrection relate to each other as shell and core, beginning and end. The resurrection can only be imagined if life beyond death can be envisioned at all.
    4. However, resurrection does not mean that man "comes out" of heaven (since as I wrote above, it's not a place), but that the body also rises and is glorified and unites with the already glorified soul.

    Attributing continued existence to man after physical death does not eliminate the crisis of death. Even one who now goes directly to heaven in spirit after death does not "skip over" death. Another reason is that, as I explained in my previous comment, Adam could not have gone to a "good" place after his death; at best, he went to Limbo Patrum, which, though better than hell, was still a joyless, sad existence, one of hopelessness - who knew then, for millennia, that there would be redemption, especially extended to them?

    It also belongs here that the idea that the body is the prison of the soul, like a garment, is a belief of Platonism; however, Catholic theology does not hold this but that the two form a close unity, and the state of the soul outside the body is not a "normal" state but a vis maior.

  • aqwsed12345
  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Conversation deleted from the original book of Genesis

    And Jehovah said to Adam, "You have eaten the fruit whereof I said you should not eat. Now your body must die and turn to dust, but your eternal soul will be tormented in hell until you are resurrected and cast into a batholith of brimstone to be really tormented, body and soul for all eternity!" And Adam said, I wish you had never created me." And God said, "I understand, but you are only getting what you deserve as I explained to you before you ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge. And in your unbearable suffering I am glorified... but take heart, you won't suffer alone"

  • enoughisenough
    enoughisenough

    vanerhoven--that is what people will have you believe.

  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt

    Yes, Vanderhoven was saying "that is what people will have you believe", but Vander is more reasonable than those people because he knows "God is Love."💖


    1 Corinthians 15:51


    "Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed."


    Paul was talking to the "born-again" ones here, the anointed Christians, about their specific resurrection. The reason he had to explain it to them is because it was a different type of resurrection than the one the Jews were familiar with. Elijah and Elisha resurrected people back to life as a living human body person. Jesus and Peter and Paul resurrected people back to life as a living human body person. They weren't resurrected as "changed". They weren't "waiting in heaven" when they were resurrected.


    Paul had to explain that the small group with a different assignment would need to be "changed" into a new creation, because flesh-and-blood human persons cannot go to heaven. People are meant to live on earth. Back in ancient Israel, most Jews had their own home and worked to support that home. The priests spent a portion of their time not at home - they worked in/at the temple. Not everybody had that assignment, but some did.


    Moses was the mediator for the covenant then. He helped install the priests. He also helped bring the law for the benefit of the entire nation. It's similar with Jesus. He is the mediator for all mankind in that his blood makes it possible for all mankind to have life. Jesus is also the mediator for the priests, the 144,000, so that they can be changed and do their assignment in the "temple" from heaven. They need certain power to do that job. Just like the installment of priests in Israel "filled their hands with power" figuratively speaking, so it is similar with the 144,000, but it's not until they are "changed" that it happens. There is no reason for any anointed one to "act as kings" now - Paul condemned those ones who tried to do it in the first century. "Are you ruling as kings without us?" He was letting them know how wrong it is to lord it over the flock as "Benefactors" the way the GB does or other clergy types of Christendom.


    The partaking of the wine and bread at the Memorial is symbolic. Only those who will be in "the marriage of the Lamb" need to partake. It's just symbolic of the "marriage" arrangement. But it doesn't mean that Jesus isn't the mediator for all mankind. He is. And "partaking of his flesh and blood" in an illustrative way means acknowledging that sacrifice and recognizing that he is our mediator, regardless of whether what our future "assignment" will be.


    "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees" - meaning the teachings of the Pharisees. Bread can mean teachings.


    Taking in Jesus as bread means accepting his clean teachings. All Christians must accept his teachings.


    Jesus taught that Lazarus was asleep in death. Jesus was going to awaken him. Jesus didn't say anything about "tripartite" states, because he knew the truth of Ecclesiastes 9:5 - "the dead know nothing at all."

  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt

    When it says in Revelation that "the 144,000 come out of the tribes of all Israel" - that shows that in context "all Israel" means "all Christians." The 144,000 are just a fraction of all faithful Christians.


    Not all Christians are part of the 144,000, but all Christians have Christ as mediator.


    Not all Christians need to be "born again" because not all Christians will be living in heaven. You only have to be "born again as a new creation" if you have to do that assignment as a king-priest.


    All Christians have Christ as mediator in that he is the Way. We must walk in the way he tells us, obey the kingly law of love, follow him as our shepherd. We are "one flock" with "one shepherd".


    All Christians will see Christ and work with him. He is our "Eternal Father" because he took Adam's place. If Adam hadn't sinned, he'd still be here on earth today to hang out with his offspring. Since he's not here, Jesus will be here instead. "Eternal Father" means he's not leaving. He can materialize and hang out whenever and wherever he wants to.


    The illustration of the "marriage of the Lamb" is figurative. The anointed 144,000 become "partner" to Christ in that they have to also be a new creation to do the assigned task. Since Jesus was willing to forsake having a literal wife and literal offspring in order to redeem the offspring of Adam, Jehovah as a reward invented the figurative wife and helper for him and allowed him to adopt all Adam's kids.


    Adam's kids were "dead" the day that Adam and Eve ate the fruit. The kids are "made alive" because of the ransom of the Christ. Since God's Word is as good as done, it is through their faith in that ransom blood that they, the kids, are saved. He is their ransom. His blood buys them back. The application of the blessings and healings are supported by the 144,000, like how the priests worked helping out at the temple, but the sacrifice for all is the Lamb and only the Lamb, Christ Jesus. He is the mediator for all who express faith and hope in his name.


    In Revelation, many times in context when it says people are "killed" it is talking figuratively, as in "killed from their former course of conduct". They were "dead in their trespasses" but they "come to life" by means of faith. Their faith gives them a new hope to live forever.


    During the great tribulation, many who do not believe in Christ today will turn around and say "we want to go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people." It's not talking about "you people, Israel" meaning the anointed. It's talking about "you people, Israel" meaning all Christians, both the anointed to work as priests in the kingdom and those who will inherit the earth and make it a Paradise side-by-side working with the Christ, the one who said,


    "You will be with me in Paradise."

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