Revelation 13 and 17 Beasts

by Duran 62 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Many Biblical scholars believe that "Babylon" is an allegory of Rome; perhaps specifically at the time to some aspect of Rome's rule (brutality, greed, paganism), or even a servant people that does the bidding of Rome.

    In 4 Ezra, 2 Baruch and the Sibylline oracles, "Babylon" is a cryptic name for Rome. Elsewhere in the New Testament, in 1 Peter 5:13; some speculate that "Babylon" is used to refer to Rome. In Revelation 17:9 it is said that she sits on "seven mountains" (the King James Version Bible—the New International Version Bible uses the words "seven hills"), typically understood as theseven hills of Rome. A Roman coin minted under the Emperor Vespasian (ca. 70 CE) depicts Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills.

    According to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, "The characteristics ascribed to this Babylon apply to Rome rather than to any other city of that age: (a) as ruling over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18); (b) as sitting on seven mountains (Revelation 17:9); (c) as the center of the world's merchandise (Revelation 18:3, 11–13); (d) as the corrupter of the nations (Revelation 17:2; 18:3; 19:2); (e) as the persecutor of the saints (Revelation 17:6)."

    Revelation 17:1 - Revelation 17:6 This chapter is the key to the Book of Revelation: Saint John sees the embodiment of the Antichrist in pagan Rome, which persecutes Christians. However, it should not be forgotten that the Roman Empire is also a precursor to all godless powers. The great harlot: Rome. The great waters are the peoples of the Roman Empire (Rev. 17:15). They have fornicated, that is, they have adopted Rome's idolatry and immorality. The scarlet beast is the first beast described in Rev. 13:1-8, the material and political power of the Antichrist. The names of blasphemy are the deified names of the emperors. The seven heads and ten horns are explained by the angel in verses Rev. 17:9-14. Verse Rev. 17:6 alludes to the persecutions of Christians. The angel presents Rome as a great whore. As Rome, or Babylon, stands against the heavenly Jerusalem, so this whore stands against the woman crowned with stars. Rome sins with its godlessness, idolatry, and emperor cult, or in the language of the Scriptures: it is immoral. This woman builds her power on the conquered peoples, the great waters. The angel takes John into the wilderness; Isaiah calls Babylon the "desolation of the sea" (21:1), from which John might have taken the expression, representing the barrenness of godlessness. The woman sits on a scarlet beast which symbolizes both the splendor with which she surrounds herself and the blood she has shed to govern the conquered peoples and that which the Christians have spilled for their faith. On her forehead was written her name: public women wore their names or their house name written on a band on their foreheads. The mystery indicates that it is not the real Babylon being referred to, which was already in ruins. The woman is drunk with the blood, the spilled blood of Christians gave further impetus for persecutions.

    Revelation 17:7 - Revelation 17:18 The Roman Empire, identified with the Antichrist, was in its full power during the time of Emperor Augustus, but is no more: with Nero, Augustus's family line died out, and the turmoil following Nero's death almost led to the empire's collapse. It rises from the abyss: it regains strength, and the persecution of Christians resumes. The seven mountains: the seven hills of Rome. The seven kings: represent seven emperors. The five are: Nero, either Galba or Otho, Otho or Vitellius, Vespasian, and Titus. The sixth ruler is Domitian, contemporary of Saint John, the seventh is likely Nerva. The ten kings: barbarian kings subjugated by Rome, who will later rebel against Rome (Rev. 17:16) and thus become instruments of God's punishment. For one hour: a short time. The angel explains the vision. A symbol can refer to multiple things, but a thing can also be explained by multiple symbols. The beast on which the woman sits is the Antichrist. As Christ died and rose again, the Antichrist tries to mimic this. - The Roman Empire existed before Christianity, so it was. With Nero's death, Augustus's family was extinct, so it is not, and people really thought the empire would also end, but it was revived. Here Satan tries to imitate Christ's second coming: was, is not: emerges from the abyss. The beast's seven heads are the seven hills of Rome, as well as seven emperors. Different explanations are given for these seven emperors. One explanation is that Augustus is the first, followed by Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero – these are said to be "five have fallen". Vespasian is the sixth: he is reigning now. Titus is the seventh: he has not yet come, and he will rule only a short while. Domitian is the eighth, who people saw as the resurrected Nero. This sequence disregards three rulers (Galba, Otho, Vitellius) who tried to come to power after Nero's death. However, it is also possible that John sees seven rulers who will rule at the end of the world, with the eighth being the Antichrist himself. The ten horns are the kings helping Rome, who persecute Christians but ultimately turn against Rome. The number ten is also a complete number. - The whore is destroyed, but the beast itself remains, indicating that it is not only the personification of Rome but also of every godless power throughout history.

    Revelation 18:1 - Revelation 18:3 The chapter dramatically presents the fall and punishment of God and His Church's main enemy, the pagan Roman Empire. The angel proclaims the fall of Rome in a prophetic past, as if it has already occurred. The angel announces Rome's fall and destruction because of its idolatry. John writes about future events as if they had already happened.

    Revelation 18:4 - Revelation 18:8 The Lord Jesus warns Roman Christians not to share in Rome's sins (Rev. 18:4-5), and commands the angels to execute judgment (Rev. 18:6-8). The angel urges Christians to leave the city so as not to perish with it. But this call also means that Christians should not have any fellowship with pagans.

    Revelation 18:9 - Revelation 18:10 Allied princes mourn Rome but do not rush to its aid. In one hour: suddenly. The allied kings mourn Rome but from a distance, lest they perish with it.

    Revelation 18:11 - Revelation 18:20 Merchants and sailors, who accumulated great wealth through trade with Rome, also lament the city's fall. The merchants mourn the fall of Rome because their businesses cease. In contrast to this mourning stands the joy of Christians: Rejoice...

    Revelation 18:21 - Revelation 18:24 The final fall of the persecuting Rome is symbolically sealed by an angel with a great stone thrown into the sea (Jer. 51:61-64). The immutability of the judgment is symbolized by the casting of the stone into the sea. Pagan Rome disappears like a stone thrown into the sea.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Babylon is indeed an important biblical symbol, and it's beneficial to understand what characterizes it! In chapters 17-20 of the Book of Revelation, we see Babylon, the pagan Rome of that time, the beast which is the symbol of all antichrist powers, a caricature of the dominion of Christ. Wherever there is a quest for world domination, the beast is present, Satan, who lies as he did during the temptation of Jesus in the desert, claiming that he owns the whole world and gives it to whom he wishes. This is the diabolic imitation of Christianity. John looks at his own time, sees the evil, the mighty forces of human frailty, the power of the Roman empire, but he also sees that these cannot compare with the power of the resurrection of Jesus Christ because, pardon the expression, they are not in the same weight class. Emperors die, empires vanish, ideologies disintegrate, but the incorruptible body of Christ lives, and a Christian can eat from the tree of life every day. Here too, it is proven that the sufferings of this life are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed to us in the future (Romans 8:18).

    Babylon is a symbol, a symbol of Roman power persecuting Christians. But Babylon lives on, and as long as there is human history, there will be Babylon. In the twentieth century, we all witnessed empires collapsing. The older generation still remembers the self-satisfied communist propaganda of the fifties, and the even older generation has memories of the haughty self-glorification of fascist ideology. Both promised world salvation, an earthly paradise, and saw themselves as eternal, while producing mountains of corpses and committing atrocious wickedness. But behold, these too have failed, not primarily for political or economic reasons, but essentially because of an anthropological error: they wanted to build a great and eternal empire against God, which is so contrary to human created nature that it cannot last long.

    Of course, unfortunately, new Babylons are also forming, and perhaps every century, every generation is given the opportunity to witness the rise and fall of a Babylon. Our era too produces its own antichrist empire, which I dare not name, just as John did not dare to name his own in his time. Let him who has understanding figure it out. It could be an empire, an organization, a concept, an ideology that opposes God's universal rule. The essence of Babylon is the striving for world domination, characterized by a fierce hatred for the revealed religion, for the mystery of the cross, which first hides behind the veil of tolerance, false peace, saying: man is allowed everything, and then one day openly attacks the Church of Christ. It is characterized by the complete twisting of God's laws, the parliamentary voting down of the Ten Commandments one by one, the complete relativization of the most basic categories, such as male and female, life and death. With a powerful apparatus, it makes the media of the time its vassal, through which it manipulates people's thinking and subverts their values.

    Let us not be so naive as to not see behind all this the machinations of the personal evil, Satan. The new Babylons are built according to his plans, even if those who execute the plan do not know who their leader is. Therefore, whenever someone approaches us with fine theories to incorporate us into an organization, let us have the courage to ask in whose name they come, who sent them, to whom they are accountable, from their immediate boss to the highest leader.

    Rev. 17:1–6. The harlot on the beast. Through the mediation of one of the angels entrusted with pouring out the seven bowls of wrath, John becomes privy to a new vision. In verses 1-6, the angel shows the seer "great Babylon" (v. 5), upon which judgment will soon be executed. The first descriptor of great Babylon: "the great harlot, who sits upon many waters" (v. 1). Old Testament mode of expression for designating a wicked and idolatrous city as a "harlot" (Isaiah 1:21; 23:16; Nahum 3:4; Hosea 4:12; 5:3; Ezekiel 16:15; 23:1). The ancient Babylon literally "sat" on many waters, built over the irrigation canals led from the Euphrates (cf. Jeremiah 51:13). Rome was not located by the sea, nor did it have a river comparable to the Euphrates. But as we see from verse 15, "she who sits upon many waters" is not to be understood geographically but allegorically. Rome's religious immorality spread throughout the world through the idolatrous and antichrist nature of the emperor cult (cf. 14:8). "The wine of her fornication," offered by the "divine emperor" to all subdued and allied peoples, is the worship of a mortal man instead of the living God. It intoxicates the peoples with the emperor cult, giving them the illusion that the emperors can truly help them in the ultimate questions of life and fate.

    The angel takes John "into the wilderness" "in the spirit." The wilderness here does not mean the same as in 12:6, in the case of the woman clothed with the sun. For the church, the "wilderness" means refuge. For the harlot Babylon, it is a sign of desolation, for according to Isaiah 21:1, the judgment came upon Babylon from the wilderness. In the wilderness appears the antithesis of the woman clothed with the sun, the church, a woman sitting on a red beast. The beast is the phenomenon known from chapter 13, which has seven heads and ten horns (cf. 13:1). The color red (cf. 12:3) is the symbolic color of the underworld evil demons in Babylonian mythology. According to the representations that have survived from the ancient Near East, the gods often appear standing or riding on some animal, usually a wild beast. As we will see later, this phenomenon refers to the symbolic embodiment of Rome, the goddess of Rome. The names of blasphemy on the beast are the same as those we encounter in 13:1, the divine titles of the emperor, holy, majestic, divine, god, lord. The woman sitting on the beast was adorned with wealth and laden with jewels. The purple and scarlet are the colors of the Roman emperor and the Roman knights. In her hand, the golden cup full of "abominations and the filth of her fornication." The contents of the cup are the same as the wine indicated in the second verse, the intoxicating wine of the emperor cult; by which the peoples were intoxicated. The name of the woman on the beast was written on her forehead, which revealed the secret of her being. This moment, again, refers to the connection of the phenomenon with Rome, as Roman harlots wore their names on their forehead bands. The name of the woman sitting on the beast: "great Babylon, mother of the harlots and abominations (monstrosities) of the earth." This designation is a biting mockery of the reverse of the name of Rome's mother goddess, and at the same time its judgment. In fact, this Rome and its emperor, revered as gods, are nothing but the source of idolatry, the enemy of the living God, the embodiment of the antichrist spirit and as a monster the destroyer of God's people. Particular attention should be paid to the expression bdelygma in the name of the woman sitting on the beast. The word originates from the Book of Daniel (9:27; 11:13; 12:11). From here it was taken over by the First Book of Maccabees (1:54), and then by Jesus (Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14). The bdelygma originally referred to the monster that destroyed Jerusalem and God's people, persecuted the Yahweh faith, desecrated the temple, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a Seleucid ruler. Later it became the apocalyptic name for the antichrist. The monstrosity of the woman sitting on the beast is evident from the following statement: "and I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus" (cf. 18:20.24). Therefore, judgment comes upon her (cf. 6:10; 19:2).

    "...whose seat is in the city built on seven hills." - According to Rev 17:9, the whore sits on seven mountains, which, according to our anti-Catholic friends, means the Vatican, as ancient Rome was built on seven hills.

    Firstly, the Greek word used here, "horos," means mountain, not hill, as all translations reflect (as do international translations - except for a couple of anti-Catholic translations). The word for hill is "bounos." In the Bible, a mountain is a well-known symbolic expression for kingdoms (cf. Psalm 68:15; Daniel 2:35; Amos 4:1, 6:1; Obadiah 8-21). That this is also the case here is clearly clarified by the Apostle John, for he adds: "And they are seven kings." So the seven mountains represent seven kingdoms or countries, but since the number seven signifies completeness, perfection, the seven kingdoms ultimately denote all the kingdoms of the Earth.

    Secondly, the Vatican was not built on seven hills, but only one: Vatican Hill. Moreover, it is not part of the seven hills on which ancient Rome was built. Those are on the eastern bank of the Tiber River, whereas Vatican Hill is on the western bank.

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    PetrW, yes, I believe this is what is explained in Chapter 13. The combination beast includes previous empires closely associated with Israel. Seven heads: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, British Empire (later Anglo-American).

    The combination beast from the sea is a conglomeration of Daniel’s four beasts (except for Egypt and Assyria). This beast would have a limited lifespan of 42 months. Head with mortal wound is the British Empire, economically on its last legs. Soon afterwards the damaged head is healed. The US comes to the assistance of the UK by declaring war on Germany and entering World War I on April 4, 1917. The healed head now becomes the Anglo-American World Power. This beast with healed head would be active for 42 months = 3½ years, from April, 1917 to November, 1920 (cf. Rev. 13:1-3, 5).

    A major product of the Paris Peace Conference is the Covenant of the League of Nations, submitted in a first draft February 14, 1919, and finally approved, in a revised version, April 28, 1919. The League was officially brought into being January 10, 1920. The first meeting of the Assembly of the League takes place on November 15, 1920. This date marks the dissolution of Beast from the sea as the image of the beast becomes active (13:11, 14, 15).

    As an image it turned out to be useless, ceasing operations April 20, 1946. This peace-keeping organization had attempted to take the place of God’s Messianic kingdom. Thus, in God’s eyes the image of the beast would be “an abomination” (13:14; cf. Dan. 11:31; 12:11). From the standpoint of the angel (and God), this man-made “abomination” amounts to a pathetic nonentity. True to form, it would disappear from sight in the clouds of World War II: “The beast that you saw existed once but now exists no longer” (Rev 17:8a NAB). So, as for the League of Nations, the emphasis would be on the “abomination”-part.

    After the 42 months two things would have happened. The healed head of Beast from the sea would become Beast from the earth. A powerful confimation of this is Rev. 13:13, e.g., Direct Energy Weapons or DEWs. Not bad for a 2,000 year prophecy. This new beast insists on making an image, i.e., the League of Nations. Later breath was given the image, and it became a beast in its own right, i.e., Beast from the abyss or UN (in the abyss = inactive; out of the abyss = active).

    So, in contrast to your elaborate constructions, I believe all the pieces of the chessboard are in place for the Great Tribulation to commence. Another interesting prophecy soon to be fulfilled is this one: "Then the kings of the earth, the officials and the generals, the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in caves and in the rocks of the mountains" (Rev. 6:15 CEB).

  • Duran
    Duran
    I believe, In the abyss = inactive. Out of the abyss = active.

    Exactly. The comparison is not between sea and abyss but instead abyss and death-stroke.

    When the beast receives the death-stroke is when it 'is not', when it gets healed is when it 'ascends out of the abyss'.

    In both cases it should be noted that it is AFTER the coming out of the abyss/death-stroke being healed that that is the time people are said to worship/admire the beast and that none of those who do so are written in the book of life.

    [ 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.]

    [3 And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world.]

    It is AFTER the death-stroke is healed/ascends from the abyss that the beast is given its 42-month authority. That is the time of GT, the hour of test/judgment to refuse to support/worship/take the mark of the beast.

    [ 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]

    [ 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

    [ 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.]


  • PetrW
    PetrW

    @Vidqun

    PetrW, yes, I believe this is what is explained in Chapter 13. The combination beast includes previous empires closely associated with Israel. Seven heads: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, British Empire (later Anglo-American).

    The combination beast from the sea is a conglomeration of Daniel’s four beasts (except for Egypt and Assyria). This beast would have a limited lifespan of 42 months. Head with mortal wound is the British Empire, economically on its last legs.

    *

    With your permission, I will ask you a few questions that I also asked myself and searched for an answer to (the result was that I then completely rejected the interpretation that the heads of the Beast correspond to different empires in human history).

    1. the Beast ascends into the sea (13:1) whole, including all 7 heads, and the Beast (not the head) is also cast into the lake of fire (19,20). If the heads are connected to the body and cannot exist without the body, how is it possible that the Beast would contain the heads, the Imperium, to the extent of almost 2500 years, when the body and heads, have yet to appear? How is it possible that the head of Assyria or the head of Medo-Persia, connected with the body, would be thrown into the lake of fire before the 1000 year Kingdom? What threat does the head of Medea, for example, pose today if the Beast should already be here?

    2. Rev. 1:1 ("what must come to pass") and 1:3 "the time is at hand" delineate apocalyptic events into the future. How is it possible that John is writing about the future but actually sees the past? Real but extinct e.g. Assyria, how does that affect the future?

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    @Duran

    Duran: In both cases it should be noted that it is AFTER the coming out of the abyss/death-stroke being healed that that is the time people are said to worship/admire the beast and that none of those who do so are written in the book of life.

    PW: I don't think that's quite accurate: the Beast of 13:8 has people worshipping it who are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, just like the Beast of 17:8. To me, this is just another argument for the Beast of 13 and 17 being one and the same...?

  • Duran
    Duran
    Another interesting prophecy soon to be fulfilled is this one: "Then the kings of the earth, the officials and the generals, the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in caves and in the rocks of the mountains" (Rev. 6:15 CEB).

    That will not be fulfilled until AFTER the GT/42-months. Those wanting to hide themselves are not doing so due to the 'pangs of distress', nor are they doing so because of the GT, they are wanting to hide because the signs they are then seeing occurring in the Sun, Moon, and Stars. This occurs AFTER the GT and indicates Jesus' coming (Armageddon), the great day of wrath. They are hiding because they know they are about to become bird food.

    POD/WW3

    GT/42 months

    Sun, Moon, Stars

    Jesus comes

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    @aqwsed12345

    I'm not Catholic. But having read several Catholic commentaries on Revelation, your explanation of Babylon is good apologetics. I don't think the RCC is Babylon directly, or that the RCC is Babylon along with others, as JWs interpret it.

    I will try to finish the text that relates to my view of Babylon's identity. So far it is a torso. And I don't enjoy writing...

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Duran, the context places this occurrence after the sixth seal. According my timeline this will take place at the beginning of the GT. During this time the 144,000 will be sealed. I agree, they will be hiding there until after the GT, where they will most probably be entombed.

    For me the horses has started their gallop at the beginning of the First World War. At the end of the war we had the Spanish Flu. In 1933 the world experienced the Great Depression. Then came the Second World War. So they have been galloping right into the 21st century. According to historians there have been no year since then free from war. Now the world seems to be on the verge of a great conventional war, if not World War III.

    As already stated, I believe the GT to be seven years in length, unless the days have been cut short. Signs in sun, moon and stars will happen often. After the breaking of the sixth seal, after the fourth trumpet blast, during Jesus' Second Coming and during Armageddon. After the GT Jesus comes. He will fetch his saints, his marriage in heaven and then Armageddon, according to natural Revelation progression.

    Again, just a thought on verb "worship:"

    To give one’s honour and allegiance to a higher power. To express by attitude and possibly by position one’s allegiance to and regard for a higher authority. See Louw-Nida. To express in attitude or gesture one’s complete dependence on or submission to a high authority figure or organization, in this case the beast, its image as well as the dragon (cf. Rev. 13:8, 12, 15; 14:11;16:2; 19:20; 20:4; cf. 13:4). See BDAG.

  • Duran
    Duran
    Now the world seems to be on the verge of a great conventional war, if not World War III.

    YES, keep that in mind.

    As already stated, I believe the GT to be seven years in length, unless the days have been cut short.

    You believe? What does the Bible say? It says it is 42-months long. And it is never cut short in the way of ending before it was supposed to. It is cut short in that it was given a specific appointed time to occur.

    [19 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the Sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.]

    [23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.]

    Luke shows that the GT is the time Jerusalem will be trampled for the appointed times which John shows to be 42-months. That is the same time period that the 8th king has authority.

    If you believe the GT is 7 years (84 months), where do you get the addition 3 1/2 years (42-months) that you believe is part of the GT, other than the 42-months I have shown?

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