by Duran 62 Replies latest watchtower bible
Revelation 13:3,5,7,8,10;11:2,3
Revelation 13:11-17;19:19,20,21
What beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?
What beast gets the 42-month authority given to it in which time the MOTB is given out?
What beast is the 8th king?
Is receiving the death-stroke the same as the going into the abyss?
Is the death-stroke being healed the same as coming out of the abyss?
@Duran
I will try to answer the first question briefly:
What beast does it state that gets thrown into the fiery lake with the false prophet?
Leaving aside Rev. 6:8, the next occurrence of the word θηριον is attested in Rev. 11:8. Here it is stated that after the 1260 days, a beast will arise from the abyss and destroy the two witnesses.
The beast from the abyss is mentioned in Rev. 17:8, stating that it goes away to destruction.
Thus, it may be considered that there is a direct causation of events: the death of the two witnesses is directly connected to the beast of Rev. 17:8. Its basic description in Rev 17:9-13 is identical (the angel describes the beast to John in general terms, without paying attention to details such as the crowns or the texts on the beast's body - cf. Rev. 17:3) with Rev. 13:1.
This is my basic view of the beasts of Rev 13 and 17. It is one and the same beast.
What other reasons can be given?
The next reference to the beast is Rev. 13:1. The dragon stands on the sand by the sea (12:18) and out of the sea comes (13:1) a beast that is strikingly similar to the dragon of Rev. 12:3, who is later identified (12:9) as Satan.
The dragon lends his strength, throne, and power to this beast (13,2). The whole earth admires the beast. In my opinion, the symbol of "earth" here is understood as a symbol of people and their hearts, which are like hard or barren ground. Or as such soil, which indeed bears fruit, but the cares of the world, the thorns and thistles, will destroy everything (Matt. 13:19-22). These are people on whose hearts the small seeds of the kingdom of God may have fallen, but they have not become true followers of Christ, good soil that bears fruit. When Jesus speaks in Matt. 10:34 about not coming to bring peace on earth, but a sword, He explains in the very next verse that by "the earth" here He means the people in the inner circle of true Christians (the real/symbolic family) who will persecute the true followers of Christ. So the land in Revelation has several meanings, and the above description applies - in my opinion - to Rev 13:3 (and of course other texts, but I don't want to go into detail).
The beast becomes an object of religious veneration (13:4), its power is limited to 42 months (13:5), and it will be so powerful that it will conquer the saints (13:7) and dominate all tribes, human communities, language groups, and nations.
In 13:11, it is specifically stated that another beast will arise from the earth. If afterwards (16:13) he is identified as a false prophet (cf. 19:20), then here again we are secting "the earth" i.e. these are the people who, though they could have brought forth a crop, did not bring forth any except thorns. Or the words of the kingdom of God "leaped" from them as from hard ground, or indeed, they knew something and were at first enthusiastic, but it quickly passed from them. So from this "habitat", people will be recruited who will form the "body" of the symbolic "false" prophet. They will speak like a dragon (13:12).
The false prophet (13:14) seduces, like the antichrist (2 John 7), so - if we understand the beast to be a rather political power, then the false prophet would symbolize a pseudo-religious organization. I don't think it's necessary to associate it with any particular church or religious system. It may be some ideology that will have pseudo-religious features, and that ideology will fanatically demand that everyone be devoted to it. It does not necessarily involve a god - see the conflict between Moses and Pharaoh, or Pharaoh's wise men or sorcerers (Ex. 7:11). I think it was more of a secular dispute - the description bears traces of "magic", but the reaction of the magi was entirely rational. I see it more as a conflict between religion (Moses) and the then, secular "science" (the Egyptian wise men) and it may be repeated again.
A false prophet, creates an image (εικων - the word then became the basis of "icon") of the beast. If behind the beast and the false prophet, stands the Dragon, then the image of the beast must be something supreme. Jesus used the term εικων when he held the coin where the image of Caesar would be. The image of the beast, then, must also be something similar. Some kind of icon. In my opinion, it is the Antichrist or the one who is "in the place of Christ".
There is a variant reading in the Gospels, especially in Matt 27:17, where Pilate asks if they want to release Jesus Barabbas or Jesus Christ? This sequence, this brief moment, if we figuratively "pause" it, then there, in those texts, in my opinion, we find all the actors: we find the beast (represented by Pilate), there is the false prophet (the high priest in Mat 27:20), but there is the murderer who participated in the rebellion (Mk 15:7). Barabbas becomes a symbol of the future Antichrist: he too will stir up rebellion in the "city" and will murder. Everyone will know that he is a murderer, but will prefer him to Christ...
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ugh, that was supposed to be a short text... I didn't write everything...
Let me start here. One must first decide on the sequence of Revelation and where everything fits in. This is how I see it. Then I'll take it from there. I do believe the beasts would have appeared during the breaking of the first three seals. Most things are already in place.
PetrW, I'm with you till "This is my basic view of the beasts of Rev 13 and 17. It is one and the same beast." Here I disagree. 1) Beast from sea. 2) Beast from earth. 3) Beast from abyss. Three beasts. And I compare "earth" of Revelation with Daniel's clay (in iron and clay part of image). Same substance. I think you "overthink" things. I go for Occam's Razor, i.e., simplest explanation is usually the best explanation.
Revelation 1:1-20 Prologue: The Day of the Lord
2:1-28 Messages to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum and Thyatira congregation
3:1-22 Messages to Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea congregation
4:1-11 Beginning of the Lord’s day: God’s throne
12:1-17 Dragon and his angels expelled from heaven
13:1 Dragon on sea shore
13:2-18 Beast from the sea, Beast from the earth (the false prophet) and Image of the beast
17:8-14 Scarlet-colored wild beast
5:1-14 Scroll with seven seals
6:1-17 Breaking of the seals
7:1-8 Hundred and forty four thousand sealed
8:1-13 Seventh seal: Trumpet blast one to four
9:1-12 Trumpet blast five (1st Woe)
9:13-21 Trumpet blast six (2nd Woe)
11:3-6 Start of public ministry of two witnesses
10:1-11 Angel with feet on earth and sea
11:14-18 Trumpet blast seven (3rd Woe)
11:1 Measurement of earthly temple
11:2 Earthly temple courtyard trampled by nations
11:19 Heavenly tabernacle opened
15:1-8 Preparation of the plagues
16:1-11 Plague one to five
11:7-13 Death of the two witnesses
16:12-21 Plague six and seven
17:1-7 Identification of Babylon
17:15-18 Fall of Babylon
18:1-24 Mourning for Babylon
7:9-17 Great crowd survives Tribulation
14:6-13 Three final angelic warnings
19:1-10 Wedding of the Lamb
14:1-5 Hundred and forty four thousand
14:14-20 Summary of Armageddon
19:11-21 Armageddon
20:1-15 Christ’s millennial rule
21:1-27 During the millennium. New Jerusalem.
22:1-21 Epilogue
Here it is stated that after the 1260 days, a beast will arise from the abyss and destroy the two witnesses.
Doesn't say that the beast will arise from the abyss after the 1,260 days it says the beast that ascends from the abyss is the one who will kill them when they have finished their witnessing, which is of course after the 1,260 days. But again, that does not mean the beast comes out of the abyss at that time, it already came out at the beginning of the 1,260 days corresponding to the death stroke being healed.
[ 8 The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.]
[3 And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 8 And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world.]
9:13-21 Trumpet blast six (2nd Woe)
11:3-6 Start of public ministry of two witnesses11:14-18 Trumpet blast seven (3rd Woe)
11:2 Earthly temple courtyard trampled by nations
11:7-13 Death of the two witnesses
Seals 2-4 = death-stroke on beast 7th head/king
The healing of the death-stroke is when it becomes the 8th king for 42-months.
The 42-month period is the GT, it is the hour of judgment from God. The test is do you refuse the 'mark' in support of God's kingdom or do you take the 'mark' in support of Satan's false kingdom. Those that take the 'mark' (goats) will undergo everlasting cut off after the 42-months when Jesus comes at Armageddon. Those that refuse the 'mark' (sheep) will be who make up the great crowd and inherit God's kingdom. (Some from among those will rule with Jesus for the 1,000 years.) Revelation 14:9-12;15:2;7:9,10,13-17;20:4;19:20,21
The 42-months that the 8th king rules corresponds to the holy city being trampled and the two-witnesses.
That time takes place during the 6th trumpet/2nd woe.
@Vidqun
I'll try today, to finish the basic framework regarding the Beasts. Especially their origin i.e. land (which I already hinted) and then the connection between sea/abyss/prison (guarded place).
I think you are right to start with the need to clarify the chronology of events. I wanted to do that too, but then it would get too complicated. That's why I've started writing about my basic perspective - so far without any particular consideration of chronology. The roles, functions and relationships of the Beasts. I'll describe them first, then place them in a timeline.
@Duran
That's an interesting interpretation. My view is that when the Woman is in the wilderness for the 1260 days (12:6), then there is war in Heaven (12:7). And it is at that time - Satan is "busy" fighting - that the two witnesses begin their 1260 days (11:3).
In fact, in (11:3) it is stated that they "shall prophesy" (Greek verb in the future tense), they do not begin immediately, yet at the time of the 6th trumpet. The 7th trumpet is announced, the blowing of the trumpet is not described until (11:15). Their activity, therefore, does not fall until the time of the "last trumpet," the 7th trumpet.
I have this basic chronological idea of Revelation that (very simplistically): the first 7 years, are the seals and trumpets. Those are the fat times, from Joseph's dream in Egypt. At that time, on the one hand, the "wheat" (the daughters and sons of God) is being harvested, and it is increasing geometrically, while being purified. Then, after the last trumpet sounds, the "lean times" begin, the Beast, the false prophet, begins to work. Bowls of wrath begin to pour out, etc.
The 1260 days of the two witnesses add up to 42 months of the Beast and the false prophet. Everything culminates, the last, 14th year.
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I am also suggesting that this contradicts, in a way, the temporal concept offered by Vidqun or you. But, on the other hand, I take your view as a good suggestion, to examine my own views and to identify any "leaky spots"...
I will try to explain my view of the Beast of the Sea (13:1) and that it is identical to the Beast of the Abyss.
For the sake of simplicity, I will not, at the outset, quote classical NT-lexics like Bauer or Kittel, because I assume that everyone can verify this for himself. I'll just present my view:
The sea of which he writes (13:1) is, in the usual allegorical sense understood across the churches (which I also hold in this case), identified with the wicked according to Isa 57:20. The "sea," then, expresses both the "mass" of humanity, and the constant restlessness and "spilling over" of opinions in rapid succession from one place to another. The "sea" represents a certain contrast to the (unfaithful!!!) "earth". If the "sea" of people can be understood as meaning that they do not express any fixed position (see the book by the Polish sociologist Zygmunt Bauman: Liquid Modernity), the people who represent the "earth" may have had some contact with something solid, some "rock that is Christ", but sooner or later they abandoned it or even betrayed it. Out of them will come a false prophet.
Back to the "sea". How is this related to the abyss? An explanation of how to understand the function(!!!) of "abyssos" is provided by Rev. 20:1 and 20:7. In (20,1) it is stated that the angel has the keys to the abyss and Satan is cast into it. In 20,7 it is written that he is released from "prison" after a period of 1000 years. Abyssos thus has the function of a "prison", some controlled place where one either enters or is released from. This is illustrated in Luke 8:31 where the demons plead with Jesus not to be put into the abyss.
Where is abyssos located? If we accept the eschatological meaning of the word abyssos, as "prison," then an interesting answer is offered in (18:2), where it is written that Babylon the Great is the place of the "prison" of all unclean spirits. This is a very strong suggestion to consider the identity of Babylon the Great... (but that is a separate topic). The idea that there is a prison for spirits is also hinted at in 1 Peter 3:19.If I focus on Revelation, there is always something that comes out of the abyss that is identified as a woe (9:12): it is the apocalyptic locusts of 9:1 (cf. 9:11) or just the Beast of the abyss (17:8).
What is the connection with the sea? If I accept that "a-byssos" means the bottomless depths of some waters, and there is a demonstrable connection between the waters of the sea (Gen 1:2 or Ps 105:9 (106:9) according to the LXX "The sea of reeds dried up...you led them in the abyss, as in the wilderness...") then the statement in 11:7 (17:8) that the Beast will come up in the bottomless depths of the human "sea" is just a refinement of where he will come up from.
The place of origin of the Beast of 13:1 and 17:8 is identical.
However, this does not necessarily prove that they are also one and the same Beast. Their number must be somehow differently defined.
For me, the defining number for the Beasts is the numerals: if in 13:11 it is stated that the false prophet (an animal from "the earth") is identified as "another" and immediately afterwards, in 13:12, that he takes over the power of the "first" animal, then only two animals are defined here. The image of the Beast is also only one (though it is assumed that it will be multiplied, but it will be the same as the image of Caesar on the coins), and the Beast will have a name (13:17-18). In 14:9, as well as 14:11; 15:2; 16:2; 16:10 (the throne of the Beast!) to 16:13, the Beast is mentioned with an image in the uniform usu. In 16:13 the Dragon, the Beast and the prophet are mentioned again, and from these come 3 unclean sayings. Again the number of actors is defined.
The final proof for the unity of the Beast from 13:1 and 17:8 is provided by 19:20: here the Beast and the false prophet are named, and those who received the χαραγμα and worshipped the image (according to chapter 13). Subsequently, the Beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not stated that the two Beasts and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire.
PetrW, yes, the beasts are related. They are the creations of the Dragon, Satan the Devil. But I am wary to conflate the scriptures unless there's very good reason for it. There's a reason why "the sea" and "the abyss" is used. It is not the same thing. The Society does the same.
I believe, In the abyss = inactive. Out of the abyss = active. Here's what a dictionary says of the abyss:
The abyss (Hebrew: תְּהוֹם; Greek: ἄβυσσος) can be favourably compared to the realm of the dead. Paul contrasts “ascent into heaven” with “descent into the abyss,” but because Christ was there, the abyss should not be conceived as an evil or demonic realm (Rom. 10:7; cf. Luke 8:31). A star (or angel) has the key to unlock the abyss, unleashing a locust-scorpion plague to torment mankind (Rev. 1:20; 9:1-3). God also allows the beast to come up from the abyss (17:8, 9, 11; cf. 11:7, 8). Later Satan the Devil would be sealed in the abyss for a thousand years (20:1-3).
The following is what I wrote to the Society. They argued that Rutherford and Co. were the "two witnesses," between 1914-18. I argued that's impossible. Beast from the abyss did not exist as yet. They obviously didn't like my criticism for I was disfellowshipped for my trouble:
A first fundamental flaw of the Watchtower interpretation of the two witnesses is the fact that they distinguish between Beast from the abyss of Rev. 11:7 and the scarlet-colored wild beast of 17:8; 18:1.
Most agree 17:8 and 18:1 refer to the same beast. In addition, in 17:8 the beast “is about to ascend out of the abyss,” whereas 11:7 describes the beast “that ascends out of the abyss.” These two are one and the same, the abyss and the state of the beast’s ascension being the common denominators.
A second shortcoming in their reasoning, compounding their error, is their belief that 11:7 and 17:8 follow in chronological order, which is clearly not the case.
In a footnote of Revelation-Its Grand Climax At Hand! (p.167) we discover some special pleading in order to justify their belief. Here the emphasis is craftily placed on the Hebrew instead of the Greek:
The “abyss” (Greek abyssos; Hebrew, tehohm’) refers symbolically to a place of inactivity. (See Revelation 9:2) In a literal sense, however, it can also refer to the vast sea. (Ps. 71:20; 106:9; Jonah 2:5) The Hebrew word is often translated “watery deep.” Thus “the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss” can be identified with “the wild beast ascending out of the sea.”
@Vidqun
If I understand correctly, then you have the idea that the Beast (13:1) disappears and reappears in Beast 17:8 from the abyss (from inactivity) to fulfill the requirement that the Beast "was, is not, and must come out of the abyss"?
