PM for you
My Father has brandished me with the "APOSTATE" word for talking about the BIBLE!
PM for you
@ stuckinarut2 and respectful_observer...
I had a similar conversation with my (then) elder Dad, too, a long, long time ago.
He parroted the company line about "not bringing reproach upon Jehovah's name/Org/whatever", to which I replied, "Wouldn't it bring even more 'reproach' if and when the police found out about the abuse anyway, and that we didn't report it???" (paraphrasing but that's the gist, and of course, it's precisely what's actually happening now).
I could tell that my Mom agreed (she was a teacher, and had more practical knowledge and experience with these matters), but my Dad had the biggest deer-in-the-headlights look I'd ever seen.
I suspect that he'd been so preoccupied with the idea of "not giving 'Satan's World' even the slightest bit of ammunition to use against Jehovah's people" and following the policies of "God's Earthly Organization" that that prospect had honestly never even occurred to him.*
Of course at the time, I'd had no idea that not following the Org's directives to the letter (no matter what they were) could and would get an elder sacked.
...it seems so obvious in retrospect, but IMO, it's one of many little things that reinforce the conclusion that even the leadership are genuine True Believers. They really can't conceive that "This Old System" could possibly last long enough for their blunders to come back and bite them on the ass.
The Jehovah's Witnesses supposedly believe everything in the bible, so how could taking about what's in the bible be wrong? What if a householder asked about this account, would he run away screaming then?
He is obviously uncomfortable because deep down he suspects that you might be right and that is just a path he is too afraid to go down.
LisaRose - "He is obviously uncomfortable because deep down he suspects that you might be right and that is just a path he is too afraid to go down."
Loyal JWs don't hate "apostates" because they think they're wrong.
They're hostile towards XJWs because they're afraid they're right.
Reminds me of an odd little conversation I had a long time ago with a (JW) friend of the family.
We both had a mutual acquaintance who'd recently become an "apostate", and my friend had indicated that he'd explained to her in detail his motives for leaving the JWs, but that she'd promised his wife to keep what he'd said confidential.
I didn't press her to break her promise, but I did ask her, "could you find any flaws in his logic?"
She paused a moment, but conceded that no, she could not.
I replied, "Well, that suggests that whatever his conclusions are, they're correct. I take it that the implications are therefore somewhat disturbing?" (I didn't say it out loud, but it wouldn't take a genius to deduce that his conclusions were that the WTS is wrong and not "God's Earthly Org")
She couldn't help but concede that, too.
Nice comments vidiot and lisarose!
Yes, the things we respectfully point out have a logical and factual basis, so any sane person can see it. However, good witness drones choose to remain blind.
Reminds me of a scripture "their minds are blinded..."
@stuckinarut2 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires", 2Tim 4:3.
"I didn't press her to break her promise, but I did ask her, "could you find any flaws in his logic?"
She paused a moment, but conceded that no, she could not."
I believe that there are more people than we can imagine that feel the way your friend does. They can see it. I have a friend that I confided in and he agreed with everything I said but ended the conversation that..."if you do not return, you are going to die." That fear gets em every time. The social part of the cult is just something others can not give up. They just can NOT "cross over", no matter how logical you are. Crazy!
I actually quit trying. I found myself getting so frustrated. My spouse and I concluded that they will have to figure it out like we did. It is just not worth the frustration. Now we use that time to enjoy life. It's short!
ToesUp - "...he agreed with everything I said but ended the conversation that... 'if you do not return, you are going to die'..."
If I were in a confident (and admittedly, somewhat sadistic) mood, I'd have been tempted to reply (albeit as nicely as possible) with...
"Okay, here's a hypothetical scenario...
...If the WTS were given control of a small country tomorrow, would freedom of speech and religion still exist in it, say, a decade later?"
If he even had the slightest amount of intelligence and integrity, he would, of course, concede, "Umm, probably not".
"What about advances in science and medicine?"
"Would any form of alternative sexual expression - even between heterosexual married couples - be allowed?"
"...No, probably not..."
"What about, simply, the practice of democracy?"
"Would disfellowshipped people (and/or 'apostates') be free to walk the streets?"
"Sure, nobody wants to die. But does all of that sound like a world in which you'd want to live (particularly forever)?"
ToesUp - "...I believe that there are more people than we can imagine that feel the way your friend does..."
Back when the JW sextuplets were born in Vancouver, BC (about ten or so years ago), there was a Maclean's article written about them and the medical controversy surrounding their need for blood transfusions.
There was one little bit that jumped out at me (I was still in at the time)...
...that a significant number of JWs - anonymously - admitted that they privately felt the WTS might actually not be "God's Earthly Organization", but, in fact, a "false religion" (as defined by the Org's own standards and definition of the term).
Even though I'd never considered it before, I never forgot it, either.