My Father has brandished me with the "APOSTATE" word for talking about the BIBLE!
He responded by shutting down the conversation and saying "your apostasy has clearly gone too far. I will NOT allow you to subvert my faith! This conversation is over!"
I know it`s easy for me to say and in hindsight but maybe if you had not let him shut down the conversation then and their but continued on with well this is what Gods word the Bible states Lot had sex not with one of his two daughters but both of them on two different occasions .
And Jehovah God views him as a righteous man ? A man and his actions to be included in the Bible?
I think we let these people off too lightly ,we should hit them hard with facts they don`t want to hear.
pussyfooting around with them doesn`t help them and only frustrates us.
But then I`m not in this situation so it`s easy for me to say this
But i`m just saying.
surely Lots crime with the compliant sexual activity with his own daughters should have warranted a punishment far worse than what the poor wife had to deal with! good points Smiddy !
So your JW father views your personal condemnation of a man raping his own daughters as apostasy that "has clearly gone too far" while adding that he "will NOT allow you to subvert [his] faith" by your implied condemnation of child incestuous rape.
No offence to you but is your father an elder that supports the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses? Call him out.
Sorry to read that. Two things however, from a JW point of view, talking about the Bible doen't make someone outside the Borg righteous/valid in his/her argument... didn't satan quote the OT against Jesus?
Second, Lot wasn't under the Mosaic Law and getting drunk and having sex with his two daughters may have been a case of "the mind is willing but the flesh is weak" in Jehovah's eyes. I know, I know... just saying... ask king David how that stuff works...
As long as JW's consider the GB to be GoD (Guardians of Doctrine) everyone else can be considered wrong regarding their own interpretation. Your father needs to see through the indoctrination first...I hope that will happen one day.
Haha! Your story reminds me of something that happened to me.
A bunch of us were all relaxing (JW = lots of booze) and we ended up on the question of whether the Tree of Life was a literal tree. (SPOILER: WT says no. Genesis 3:22-24 seems pretty clear on the issue.) One of the brothers (an elder at Bethel, no less) who was pretty inebriated dug out the WT reasoning shoving it in my face. When I re-directed him to the verses in the Bible he shouted at me: "I DON'T CARE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, I BELIEVE WHAT'S PRINTED IN THE WATCHTOWER! WHAT ARE YOU-- APOSTATE?"
I calmly stood, grabbed my cocktail, and walked away.
Side note: they all got so bombed that night, most of them had to stay the night because they were way too drunk to drive.
Pretty shaky faith if one comment is enough for him to decide that you could subvert it just by pointing out the obvious.....
He Stucky - I know it's hard, have some pity though - his WHOLE life and future are based on the lies.
What is left when that is taken away especially when you are older and have made so many sacrifices?
It is very hard to let go. It is frightening.
Thanks for your replies everyone!
So, one thing I did say as he was trying to shut down the conversation was :
"Dad, we have always been told that whenever we read the bible, we should ask ourselves 'what does this section teach me about Jehovah's personality?' isn't that right?"
His reply was "Well Jehovah could have omitted parts of the bible out if he wanted, but he didn't. Plus, Lot was not even aware that his daughters did that to him!"
I replied with the following: "What, Lot was the VICTIM? A 100 year old man manages to sustain an erection after drinking wine, doesn't know he is even having sex, and his virgin daughters manage to both conceive on their very first attempt at sex, and obviously they were both ovulating at the same time?? Sorry Dad, but I have trouble with this account for so many reasons"
Dig hole in sand, insert head! The JW way. I feel your pain Stuck. Trying to "reason" with these people is frustrating. My spouse and I finally gave up. When we speak to family, it's about health, finances and the weather. It is safer that way. lol If we get on a WT subject, things don't go well. We remind them of that and tell them that we will have to "agree to disagree."
It's the cognitive dissonance kicking in. I'm very wary in the increasingly rare interactions I have with JW relatives & acquaintances - they would have the exact same reaction ( and have done in the past. ) One of my relatives is very anti & would love to see me DFd.
I've leaned not to avoid talking about JW stuff - in fact , I deliberately bring stuff up ( such as how is so-and-so , etc , or asking about a recent international convention they attended or some non controversial news story such as the building of a new Bethel). I try to simply regard any JW related conversations with a mild interest , as if they were talking about a hobby they enjoyed that I didn't share or their secular job , and try to veer any conversation towards general gossip about JWs that we both know ( which in fairness , most JWs are very good at anyway ) or anything vanilla out of general , somewhat detached , interest rather than anything doctrinal or controversial.
They have kind of learned to play the same game as well - most of them are just social 2nd / 3rd generation JWs without any core beliefs but more into the lifestyle as it is all they have ever known, so it keeps everyone happy. They can always book their time ( and I am sure they do. ) That's not to say that a reaction such as the original poster had won't ever come out - we are all walking on eggshells here and the anger and resentment they have ( and , frankly , I have ) can explode at any time.
The elephant is always there in the room , and always will be , but I've learned to try to manage it so that it is acknowledged to an extent but it doesn't poop all over the carpet.