Some thoughts on the message of doom

by JeffT 49 Replies latest jw friends

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    I'm having trouble with my computer trying to cut and paste. I will try to put together a list in the next day or two.

    But ponder this: the Watchtower claims that the 1975 fiasco was brought about by JW's speculating about the end. There was certainly a lot of speculation going on among rank and file JW's. At no time were we admonished not to speculate. Not in books, magazines, from the elders, CO's etc. As we all know the WTBS wants to control what JW's think and say. If people were speculating, they were doing so with the leaderships approval.

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH
    Fisherman: When Jesus restored the ear that Peter cut off, nobody noticed.

    I wondered about that. A group of priests and soldiers witnessed this, and none of them were moved by it. Aside from possibly the most stupid or fanatical, such an action should've stopped them in their tracks and forced them to reevaluate their approach. Were they so driven that they dismissed something so incredible? Or was magic so common that reattaching a man's ear wasn't enough to prevent them from arresting, torturing, and murdering a literal miracle worker?

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman
    Watchtower claims that the 1975 fiasco was brought about by JW's speculating

    WT was JW who set the date. Rhetorical language

  • Journeyman
    Journeyman
    I wondered about that. A group of priests and soldiers witnessed this, and none of them were moved by it. [...] Were they so driven that they dismissed something so incredible?

    It's a good question. I think you put your finger on part of it there. Bear in mind that previously, the religious leaders and others who opposed him had claimed that any unexplained works he had done were because he "had a demon" - so even if they saw things that could be considered miraculous, they were so convinced that they were right and he was wrong that they probably attributed it to evil which had to be fought.

    It's the same reason that I was always amazed that the Devil would continue to oppose God, despite knowing from long ago that his end would be in destruction. But sometimes becoming so fixated on your own actions can blind you to everything else, especially if you are eaten up with rage and/or hatred.

    For those unsure, or who don't believe the whole 'spiritual' element, we know this happens in 'real' life too: some fugitives or criminals become so focused on what they want to do, that they become tunnel-visioned and ignore the massive odds stacked against them. Likewise with military leaders who will lead their forces into futile, suicidal campaigns because they are totally convinced of their own ideology and still believe they can win.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot
    Journeyman - β€œβ€¦ some fugitives or criminals become so focused on what they want to do, that they become tunnel-visioned and ignore the massive odds stacked against them. Likewise with military leaders who will lead their forces into futile, suicidal campaigns because they are totally convinced of their own ideology and still believe they can win.”

    Factor in sunk-cost fallacy and a near-impenetrable echo chamber, and you got a near-perfect storm of legal, administrative, and membership-based headaches that can’t help but get worse with each passing day.

    😏

  • peacefulpete
  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Were they so driven that they dismissed something so incredible?

    Elephant in the room. In their midsts.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Were they so driven that they dismissed something so incredible? Or was magic so common that reattaching a man's ear wasn't enough to prevent them from arresting, torturing, and murdering a literal miracle worker?

    A literalist Christian reader is guilty of equal tone deafness. The pericope is again an exercise in typological reading of the OT. Thrice the expression "fulfilled" is used.

    8 Jesus answered, β€œI told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: β€œI have not lost one of those you gave me.”
    49 Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”
    54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”


    This is not a retelling of history, but a theological interpretation of passages (including 2Esdras see below) reimagined as prophecy.

    The betrayal, the kiss, the setting in Gethsemane, the surrounding by enemies, the preservation of his followers, etc. are all from the OT.


    What then was meant by Jesus stopping the sword action? The clear theological/political message is repeated twice in Mark.

    14:48 β€œAm I leading a rebellion?” said Jesus, β€œthat you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? 49 Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”
    36 Jesus said, β€œMy kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

    The writer of Mark is making very clear to Roman audiences that Christianity was not a threat. A timely message when it was written.

    Beyond that the story is ripe with symbolism. The one hit with the sword was identified as the servant of the High Priest, (who represented the Law), fitness for high Priesthood included no bodily defect. In Josephus a High Priest was made unfit for service by having his ears removed. War, 1.13.9)

    Then the possibility that slavehood is in discussion. A slave who had his right (per detail added by John) ear pierced was committed to perpetual servitude. Was this symbolism again?

    How about the guy's name being included? Malchus (meaning King) was this another reference to the Law and sin no longer being King? Who knows?

    But what's clear is the author's own explanation that this scene was written to both identify Jesus as the OT typological fulfillment and reassure Roman authorities they posed no threat.


    Regarding the John 19:

    8 Jesus answered, β€œI told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9 This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: β€œI have not lost one of those you gave me.”

    This is another example of NT writers utilizing books regarded as apocryphal by many today.

    2 Esdras 2:26 -

    As for the servants whom I have given thee, there shall not one of them perish; for I will require them from among thy number.


    It is also of significance that Mark, Matt nor John suggest the ear was healed. Only the writer of Luke writing well after Matt and Mark mentions a miracle. Perhaps he missed the symbolism and simply saw it as an opportunity to add another one.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Sorry,kinda got on a roll. Bit off topic.

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    I did get the impression that the gospels were written to appeal to the Romans. Pilate's wife is the one who admonishes him to leave Jesus alone, as she has been tormented by dreams. Pilate himself literally washes his hands of the ordeal (I assume this is the origin of the phrase). And, just to hammer the point home, the Jewish priests demand the death of Christ and insist on assuming all of the guilt for it. It is a Roman general who, at the moment of Christ's death, recognizes the signs and declares him the son of God. It is --again-- the Jewish priests who lie about the empty tomb. It is a Roman soldier (general? I don't remember) who prays for guidance, and to whom a chastised Peter delivers the good news of the kingdom. And so on.

    They were not being subtle, I'll say that.

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