by BoogerMan 55 Replies latest social current
LoveUni how do you envisage Scotland becoming independent without “breaking up the UK”?
^^^ Ok, you win. Scotland can only get independence by breaking up the UK.
With this in mind, don't you think the break up of the UK should be decided by the whole of the UK electorate?
Or do you think the existence of the UK (population 65-plus million) should be decided by 5 million kilt-wearing Jocks?
Am looking forward to your response ...
Could someone or anyone clarify why they think Scotland is a joke? - I didn't say 'Scotland is a joke', I said 'Scottish independence is a joke'.
Please address the issues I raised in that post.
Thank you.
I think Scottish independence is feasible, but not under SNP and not with the goal of becoming part of another country (EU) again. If you’re just changing who runs the country, then you may as well not change at all, the crown is objectively better than the unelected bureaucrats of the EU.
If you don’t have a plan that includes eliminating high taxes and eliminating and privatizing the broken healthcare and transportation and other government-run systems, then you’re not changing anything.
I can only speak from a personal perspective.
My opinion is that most peoples desire in Scotland pro or against independence is not driven by financial or economic matters but what's inside them personally.
For me I am a Scottish resident, English born of a Scottish Mother and English Father. As British as its possible to get i suppose. I have lived in Scotland for about 46 of my 53 years. My first 2 then a 5 year period 1998-2003.
Two of my five children are English born, the other three Scottish.
The SNP get their way, they make me foreigner in my own country.
Not if I have anything to say about it!
That said, my experience of talking to pro-independence minded people is that they also don't care about financial and or economic consequences.
Freedom at any price is the usual mantra I have come across.
For most of the past 20 years the SNP has been led by 2 very charismatic leaders who engaged with Scotland. That is now gone.
The next General Election, probably in just over a year will be very interesting.
Edited to add: I do however support the right of Scotland to determine this if the majority vote for it in an election which gives a mandate for a further referendum.
But like the 2014 one, I don't think a Yes vote is a foregone conclusion.
There is a strong anti-English bigotry at the heart of the Indy movement. It is odious.
Yep, what cofty said as well.
Love Uni do you think Irish independence is a joke? Or is Norwegian independence a joke? Or is it just Scotland you think is incapable of independence? Please explain.
I agree that the rest of the UK will be affected when Scotland becomes independent. A spouse is affected when one partner decides to divorce, that doesn’t give them a veto. The union of Scotland and England is meant to be voluntary and the position of UK governments has always been that it is voluntary. If Westminster wants to change that position then they should be explicit about it. A country that is not allowed to determine its own status is a colony not a partner.
Have you thought through the implication of keeping Scotland in the union if it want to leave? Because if Westminster does attempt to keep Scotland in the union despite the majority of Scots wanting to leave, then that will affect England too, no? What a miserable situation for everyone involved, English as well as Scots. I can’t believe anyone seriously wants that.
The independence supporters I know are very pro England and the English. 👍
Love Uni do you think Irish independence is a joke? Or is Norwegian independence a joke? Or is it just Scotland you think is incapable of independence? Please explain - er, no. Irish independence 100 years ago has nothing to do with what we're talking about, which is Scottish independence today. The main difference between the two is that the Irish actually voted to leave, whereas Scotland voted to stay, lol.
And what the hell is 'Norwegian independence'? Are you referring to Norwegian independence from the Danish crown, something that happened a long time ago? That has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.
And I see you've neatly side-stepped some of the issues that a New Scotland would face.
No 1: what currency would this shiny new independent country have?
No 2: how would this new-look Scotland fare without the Barnet Formula propping it up?
No 3: would this Scotland drill for all its oil in the North Sea, or would it keep it locked there because of the supposed climate crisis?
I agree that the rest of the UK will be affected when Scotland becomes independent. A spouse is affected when one partner decides to divorce, that doesn’t give them a veto - so you think that the fate of the UK (pop. 65-plus million) should be decided by five million kilt-wearing Jocks, because you've just compared that situation with one spouse leaving another. For somebody who is obviously intelligent and thoughtful you can be an idiot at times.
I simply say this: if the fate of the UK is to be decided, then for goodness sake let all UK citizens vote on it. <---- this is fair, no?
Have you thought through the implication of keeping Scotland in the union if it want to leave? Because if Westminster does attempt to keep Scotland in the union despite the majority of Scots wanting to leave - do the majority of Scots actually want to leave?
Some more things to consider if/when Scotland goes independent and breaks up the UK:
- How much money from Westminster should Scotland receive? (no, it shouldn't receive half, let's nip that in the bud right now, lol)
- The national debt of the UK currently exceeds £2 trillion. Should an independent Scotland inherit its share of the UK deficit on the break up of the UK?
It’s 50/50 want independence at the moment. It is much higher now than it was before the 2014 referendum. Many expect it to rise as time goes on but nothing in the future is certain. I certainly agree with you Scotland should only become independent when a majority vote in favour of it.
The other parts of the UK should get their own votes on whether to remain in the UK. A united Ireland looks like it could happen soon. Welsh independence could be further off. England could decide it wants to go alone if it wants to and preempt the votes of other parts of the UK, although there isn’t much call for that as yet.
Yes Ireland has made a good success of independence despite Westminster not wanting to let it choose its own sovereignty initially. The sooner Scotland becomes independent the better. I think Norway voted for independence from Sweden in 1905 with an overwhelming majority. They have made a great success of it too.
Like any normal country Scotland will decide what is in its best interests in terms of currency and economic and foreign policy at the time. Since countries make these sorts of decisions all the time the idea that Scotland would be incapable of doing so is what requires some sort of explanation. But the idea that Scotland wouldn’t have been wealthier outside the UK is an insult to our intelligence when we see what Norway has done with its oil revenue compared with Westminster frittering it away in profits for private companies instead of benefitting citizens as whole.
I agree both the assets and the liabilities of the UK state will need to be settled equitably when Scotland votes for independence. We want to go on having good relations with our neighbours - better in fact once the issue of independence is settled.
