"Independent" Scotland joke!

by BoogerMan 55 Replies latest social current

  • BoogerMan

    Humza Yousaf, Scotland's First Minister, said: "Scotland, I'm afraid, is suffering because we are not independent." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-66012834

    Try telling that to Scotland's tourists and many island communities: the ferry services are dying month by month, and the two new overdue & over-budget ferries justify a serious legal/criminal enquiry.

    Any bunch of incompetents who can't provide a small country with a ferry service and a legally binding contract to build 2 new boats - having controlled Scotland since 2007 - has no credibility in claiming they could run a country!

    Not to mention, the SNP can't tell the Scottish police where £600,000 of donations have gone.

    Scotland is suffering because of the SNP.

  • LoveUniHateExams

    The whole idea of Scottish independence is a bit of a joke anyway, TBH.

    It's not really viable*, because Scottish independence would only have a chance of working if Scotland was allowed immediately back into the EU after leaving the UK. And even if that happened (which is not guaranteed), what currency would the New Scotland have? Euro?

    *Independence from England would mean that Scotland won't be able to suck at the teat of Westminster, i.e. no more Barnet Formula, no free eye tests, no more free uni, etc. Also, you know all that oil Scotland supposedly has? Well, there might not be as much of it as the SNP claims.

  • Journeyman
    The whole idea of Scottish independence is a bit of a joke anyway, TBH.

    I agree, especially now with what has been revealed about the SNP leadership. And with wee Nicola Krankie out of office, Hamza is a far less inspiring and unifying figure (thankfully).

    Leaving the EU was the right move, but breaking up the UK would be a disaster for all the constituent countries, IMO, and the sooner the prospect of Scottish independence recedes into the background, the better.

    I always found it amazing that the pro-indy Scots (and Remoaners around the rest of the UK) would whinge about anyone who was against Scottish independence but supported Brexit, claiming it was hypocritical.

    However, there is a huge difference between being a member of a 300+ year borderless union of essentially similar nations which has stood for generations and during which millions have intermarried, lived and work together, versus a constantly changing union (from 6 to 27 in 70 years, and 8 more bidding to join) of less than 80 years duration (and only 33 for borderless travel) between hugely different nations, many of whom have significant cultural and historic differences and have been at war with each other even in the past century.

    Anyone who cannot see that the EU and UK are at root very different unions (and that's not to mention the aspect of a shared landmass) is both culturally and historically naive.

  • LoveUniHateExams

    Here's the way is see it:

    If Scotland propose to leave the UK (with the UK remaining but being somewhat smaller), then that's a matter for the Scottish electorate.

    If, however, Scotland proposes to leave and break up the UK, then that should be a matter for the whole of the UK electorate.

    From some of the conversations I've had with SNP supporters, they want to break up the UK, not just leave it. They seem to revel in the possible death of the UK. All this is driven by anti-English sentiment, even though tax payers south of the border help greatly with Scottish finances.

    Rule 1: never bite the hand that feeds you.

    However, if Scotland votes to leave then they should be left to leave.

  • Journeyman

    To be fair, I do consider the separation of Scotland from the rest of the UK as damaging to all.

    Not only do I disagree with the indy Scots like the SNP, I strongly disagree with the (mostly English) elements that take the view "stuff the Scots, let 'em go if they want to!"

    I'm a product of mixed heritage between three of the four nations of the UK, so I feel very personally that the three nations on the mainland at least should remain together and will ultimately all suffer if apart. I consider them all together as my "homeland", and will always feel that whether I go to London, Edinburgh or Cardiff, they are all MY people and country, whatever nonsense sectarian politicians try to divide their people.

    Northern Ireland is a different matter as I recognise it's been much more sensitive and problematic, with divisions and severe sectarian violence even up to recent years (and still periodically breaking out), so I understand that being a much more live concern for the possibility of independence, especially given the demographic shift between Catholic and Protestant populations.

  • slimboyfat

    LoveUni how do you envisage Scotland becoming independent without “breaking up the UK”? Do you have in mind a way to do this, or is it simply an opaque way of saying you think Scotland is not allowed to choose independence?

    Scotland entered the union voluntarily in 1707 and the position of the UK has always been that it can leave voluntarily. If that changed then it would be good to know where we stand as a vassal state and give up the pretence.

    Could someone or anyone clarify why they think Scotland is a joke? Is it really your opinion that Ireland, Portugal, Denmark, and wherever else can run their own country, but Scots are incapable of doing so? Is this because you think Scots are too stupid, or lack some other core ability? Please clarify why you think it is a “joke”?

    I agree the SNP is utterly hopeless. I have nothing but contempt for the current leadership. Despite the goodwill I had toward Sturgeon when she took the leadership in 2014 she has thoroughly squandered it with her behaviour. Much of the rest of the SNP are useless too, the good ones have left or been sidelined.

    Scotland has thoroughly turned their backs on Sturgeon and her lackeys, and their suppor in the polls has plunged. Nevertheless support for independence in Scotland remains as strong as ever. If support for independence can survive the complete implosion of the SNP it speaks to the depth of conviction about the principle of sovereignty despite the betrayal (I don’t think that’s too strong a word) of those in the SNP who have squandered the trust of the people. This means the road to independence may be longer than we wished but the ultimate destination of an independent Scotland looks as sure as ever. That doesn’t mean it’s certain, but it remains the likely resolution to our ongoing journey.

  • Journeyman
    Could someone or anyone clarify why they think Scotland is a joke?

    Ok, that's a fair question, and I apologise for repeating that term in quoting LoveUni's comment. I did not intend to suggest that Scotland or the Scots themselves are "a joke", however I do feel that the time and effort expended on this issue are deeply misguided, at a time when there are common threats (economics, international politics, crisis of democracy, crime) to be tackled which IMO, should be faced by the UK together, not by fragmenting into constituent parts.

    I think my second comment better summed up my view that behind all the posturing and politics on both sides (some of which IS a "joke" in a sick sort of way), the possibility of Scottish independence is a looming tragedy for all parts of the United Kingdom.

    If the pressure is maintained by pro-independence Scots and they successfully rouse enough support for another IndyRef by selling this idea of some kind of anti-English "break the yoke" utopia in which Scotland can then somehow slot neatly back into a union with the EU, then of course a referendum cannot be put off indefinitely in a democracy, but it would be massively wasteful and damaging to the whole of the Union IMO, and so that is why I would prefer to see desire for the whole thing fade among Scots themselves, and that in turn is why I am not sorry to see divisions and flaws in pro-independence parties exposed.

    While the SNP appeared to be riding high, they were able to fool many voters into thinking they had the answers, but now let those who think independence is some sort of ideal end goal see the reality. I know of, and see comments from many pro-union Scots who have been very worried at the direction that Scotland has been taking under the almost total grip of the SNP, and so will be relieved to see a light shone on their activities. I don't know whether the SNP really are/were pro-independence or were just using that for leverage (as some of the more radical/committed pro-Indy Scots seem to believe), but either way, I feel they have been playing with fire by stoking up the whole IndyRef issue.

    Sadly, the UK is so divided politically now (as discussed on the Brexit thread) that I don't see the possible shrinking of the SNP's power leading to much more rallying around the Union though. It seems polling on the Scottish independence issue in Scotland is usually very close, with no more than about 8-10% either way (and up to 10% undecided, enough to possibly tip any result), which means whatever the outcome, if a referendum is forced through it's likely to be very divisive and damaging to the body politic, just as the EU referendum vote was. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence

    Really I think the people of this island would be much better together than fragmented, especially if it did come to trying to change or rebuild the damaged political system that we currently have. My fear though, is that the "me and mine first, and stuff the rest of you" principle which we've all been fed on since at least the Thatcher years of the 1980s will predominate, and for me, the demand for Scottish independence is just one symptom of that. Ironic really, since the modern resurgence of Scots Nats was fed precisely as a counter-reaction to her policies.

  • slimboyfat

    I understand your reasons for not supporting Scottish independence, but do you respect the right of Scotland to make that choice if they wish?

    I have supported independence since 2003 and the illegal invasion of Iraq. I see Scottish independence as the only way to extricate ourselves from US/UK wars of aggression round the world and to remove nuclear weapons from the country. A smaller UK might help the rest of the UK reevaluate its own position on those issues as well.

    Scotland should also be able to pursue membership of the EU, nationalise key services such as energy and transport, preserve the health service, and much more that Westminster curtails and blocks. Scotland frequently gets outvoted and endures policies against our inclination, as with Thatcherism in the 80s, Cameron/Osborne’s austerity, and the current destruction of public services. It’s a bit much to be lectured on the need for Scots to endure all this needlessly in the name of solidarity, and wrongheaded because a smaller UK state may be the thing to help the rest of the UK reorient toward social democracy too. In the meantime why should we be tethered to a political programme we don’t endorse? Scotland should decide its own future and direction as any other normal nation state in the world, no less and no more, just seeking to be a normal country that takes its own decisions and responsibility for those decisions good or bad.

  • stan livedeath
    stan livedeath

    i think if there is another vote on the subject of Scottish independence--then the whole of the UK should be included in the vote.

  • BoogerMan

    @ SBF + any other "independence" believers:

    I'm totally against the "independence" mob whose extremists perpetually use the "hate/blame the English" agenda as the cause of any/all of every problem north of Hadrian's wall.

    The "Braveheart" language used to delude Scots into wanting to split from the UK is vented ad nauseam - "We'll take control of our own future, we can make our own decisions, we can rule ourselves like Norway, we won't be subservient to England," etc. etc. etc. Swapping London rule for Brussel's rule will do all this? 😂😂😂

    I have yet to hear hard & fast answers from any "independence" supporter as to how me and my household would be economically & socially better off, what currency would Scotland have to create/adopt, will there be a hard border with England, how will Scotland's enormous welfare payments, free Health Service, prescriptions, university education, & bus travel for under 22's be financed, not to mention defence of its new borders?

    Isn't the SNP conflicted between being a NATO member and telling England it doesn't want nuclear weapons in Scotland? How will that work?

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