Virgin Birth Claim Disproves Biblical Inspiration

by AlanF 63 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • rem
    rem
    But the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 was given under such solemn circumstances and amid such prophetical developments that prefigured the future that this prophecy of the birth of Immanuel by the ‘al·mah´ must have a fulfillment future from the days of King Ahaz. This is especially so since Isaiah said under inspiration: "Behold, I and the children whom Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from Jehovah of hosts, who dwelleth in Mount Zion." (Isaiah 8:18, AS) So this child Immanuel back there in his peculiar birth and meaning of his name would be a wonderful sign of something to occur future. Hence Isaiah 7:14 would have a major, complete fulfillment after Isaiah’s time and at God’s own appointed time.

    Huh?

    rem

  • archangel01
    archangel01

    That script or scripts in Isa. must have nothing to do with JESUS or the SEED. That seed was to come to crush satan stated to Adam & Eve before they got kicked out. That seed is JESUS. However the wts take scripts out of context to trick there members to stay.

  • Francois
    Francois

    To me, the proof that the so-called "virgin birth" is nonsense is very, very simple, and it is this:

    God does not break his own laws. End of argument.

    This also means that the sun did not stand still in its orbit (acutally, the earth did not stand still its orbit); nor did any of the other so-called miracles that violated the laws of physics, chemistry, or anything else actually take place. They are merely fables with which humans tickle their ears.

    Mary got pregnant the usual way: She and Joseph got it on. The thing that made Jesus unique was his personality, not his corporeal form. Thus, his standard body, got in the standard way, was invested with the personality of Jesus by an act of diety.

    Never forget Occam.

    My two cents.

    francois

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    It is noteworthy that Barnes took about seven gazillion words to "explain" those verses in Isaiah. AlanF took a few paragraphs to dash the argument to pieces.

    Always let a red flag go up when it takes reams of "explanation" to make something fit one's pre-conceived notions of what they should mean. It either means the explainer is a fuzzy thinker or the thing trying to be explained is bullshit.

    Farkel

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    What? Is everyone still a jw or something?

    What does "inspired" mean to you ? - historically and chronologically discernable?

    "The maid who kept the door, also said to Peter, "Aren't you His disciple too?" and he said "I'm not" - he denied it to his soul (who cried to the judge, his conscience, the Jordan of his mind in which he did not cross) - the maid keeps the door to his heart, the virgin who did could not accept her groom because the time was not right.

    Then a maid, seeing him as he sat in the light and gazing at him, said, "This man also was with him."

    I get the feeling you've got no idea what I'm talking about - inspired is something else altogether - in non-jw circles.

  • A Paduan
    A Paduan

    I'd like to ask - does anyone understand the context of these sayings?

    Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.

    ...tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    I think the Watchtower's explanation is doubtlessly evident to all reasonable persons.

    Expatbrit

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Undisfellowshipped supplied some commentary from Albert Barnes' Commentary on Isaiah 7:14 and Isaiah 7:16. The final conclusion with respect to my argument, bolded below, was:

    The child then about to be born would, in most of the circumstances of his birth, be an apt emblem of him who should be born in future times, since both would be a demonstration of the divine power and protection. To both, the name Immanuel, though not the common name by which either would be designated, might be appropriately given. Both would be born of a virgin - the former, of one who was then a virgin, and the birth of whose child could be known only to God - the latter, of one who should be appropriately called "the" virgin, and who should remain so at the time of his birth. This seems to me to be the meaning of this difficult prophecy. The considerations in favor of referring it to the birth of a child in the time of Isaiah, and which should be a pledge to him of the safety of his kingdom "then," seem to me to be unanswerable. And the considerations in favor of an ultimate reference to the Messiah - a reference which becomes in the issue total and absorbing - are equally unanswerable; and if so, then the twofold reference is clear.

    SwordofJah supplied some wonderful "meat in due season" from "the faithful and discreet slave". The Watchtower's argument is much like that of Barnes, and likely was borrowed directly from him:

    The birth of this child named Immanuel would, of course, not be a virgin birth. The reasonableness of this is grasped when we see that the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 concerning the birth of Immanuel by a maiden was to be a sign for the benefit of King Ahaz to whom the prophet Isaiah was then speaking. The virgin birth of a child seven hundred years later could hardly be a sign to wicked King Ahaz during his lifetime. In Isaiah’s case, therefore, the mother of the son Immanuel would be an ‘al·mah´ or young woman sexually ripe. But the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 was given under such solemn circumstances and amid such prophetical developments that prefigured the future that this prophecy of the birth of Immanuel by the ‘al·mah´ must have a fulfillment future from the days of King Ahaz. This is especially so since Isaiah said under inspiration: "Behold, I and the children whom Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from Jehovah of hosts, who dwelleth in Mount Zion." (Isaiah 8:18, AS) So this child Immanuel back there in his peculiar birth and meaning of his name would be a wonderful sign of something to occur future. Hence Isaiah 7:14 would have a major, complete fulfillment after Isaiah’s time and at God’s own appointed time.

    Readers will note that neither of the above comments actually address the problem that I brought up: You can't have it both ways. Either the birth of the child in Ahaz' day and Jesus' birth were both virgin births, or both were not, because the prophecy uses the word almah (maiden, virgin) to describe the only birth in the prophecy. To claim that in the one case, one should choose "maiden", as both commentaries implicitly do, but in the other we should choose "virgin", is nothing but special pleading -- which is usually a form of false argument. In some cases, special pleading is fine, but one has to present good, solid reasons why the special pleading is a valid argument. Obviously, in the case of "the virgin birth", the only case that can be made is that if the choices are not made as Barnes and the Watchtower do, the Bible is proved to be uninspired. Thus it is a circular argument, and the special pleading is unjustified. Therefore neither Barnes nor the Watchtower have proved their case, or dealt with my proof that the Bible is uninspired.

    AlanF

  • patio34
    patio34

    I no longer have the book about Mideastern mythology and Jewish comparison, but the author stated that the writer of Matthew used the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures which mistranslated the word for young woman.

    I don't know anything else, but appreciate your statements of the Barnes tome about it, Alan.

    Pat

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    patio34 said:

    but the author stated that the writer of Matthew used the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures which mistranslated the word for young woman

    Here is the Septuagint Translation of Isaiah 7:10-16:

    Esais [Isaiah] 7:10-16:

    And the Lord again spoke to Achaz, saying, Ask for thyself a sign of the Lord thy God, in the depth or in the height. And Achaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord. And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; is it a little thing for you to contend with men? and how do ye contend against the Lord? Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, before he knows either to prefer evil or choose the good. For before the child shall know good or evil, he refuses evil, to choose the good; and the land shall be forsaken which thou art afraid of because of the two kings.

    From what I have seen, the New Testament writers certainly did quote from the Septuagint most of the time (if not all of the time) when quoting the Old Testament.

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