by Lee Marsh 110 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I'm more than comfortable agreeing that the WT's application of the Bible to support shunning is incorrect. I'm more than comfortable agreeing that shunning is harmful. I agree, also, it's not moral.
But I'm also keenly aware that the WT, and the witnesses that agree with the WT, do not agree with me.
So what do we do? I say X, they say Y. How do we resolve the issue? Each side isn't going to willingly concede.
Do people have a right to join a cult and believe the teachings of the cult?
Right now, they can join a cult if they want. But soon that option won't be available anymore. The time for experimenting with cults will have passed. Cults hurt people. God's not going to allow people to hurt people anymore at a certain point. He's allowed them to try cults and it doesn't work. (He already knew it wouldn't work from the beginning, but He allowed them to try anyway, because they wanted to, but He put a time limit on it.) The precedent's been set. Soon no more cults. Ever. Cult-free life, woo-woo. Happy day. Hallelujah. He'll undo the damage from them and anyone in the future whoever says "hey, let's do the cult thing!" will be reminded - "ah, no, let's not."
We already see the evil from the cult-lifestyle, but many of the JWs do not see it yet. They will see it shortly, whether they want to or not - Jehovah is exposing all of it, from the foundation to the roof. It's going to be completely torn down and exposed. When the WTBT$ hierarchy is dismantled, the rank-and-file will see the false doctrines for what they are, and they won't cling to them anymore. They'll be embarrassed they ever believed in them.
It will happen fast.
EasyPrompt;
The Borg is crumbling from inside out
Yes, but it will still be functioning when it's tossed in the figurative "fire". It's coming quickly, that hour.
There will be always people in JW mindset.
After the Borg implodes.
Fine.
They can go find some other authoritarian high control group, for all I care…
…as long as the one they were in is no longer around.
There is nothing about removing an individual's right to decide who they talk to. Not one word.
It is about a group telling people that they will die if they talk to the "mentally diseased" if that isn't hate speech I don't know what is? And they are using God to coerce people into doing what they want not to protect people but to prevent them from leaving too if they find out they have been lied to.
In the WTS there is no honorable way to leave. There is no compromise. No "agree to disagree". You are the "walking dead" and if JWs have contact with us then they too are dead.
People do have the right to join any group they want and believe what they want. They do not have the right to force others to join or believe the same thing.
And the GROUP leaders do not have the right to force anyone to do things that are ethically wrong, no matter how much they want to control everyone.
There is nothing about removing an individual's right to decide who they talk to. Not one word.
It is about a group telling people that they will die if they talk to the "mentally diseased" if that isn't hate speech I don't know what is?
No. There is no such thing as "hate speech". There's all sorts of mean, cruel speech, but none of it fits into a bannable container that you label "hate speech". You couldn't define it, even if your life depended on it. It's a blanket term for "things I don't want people to say".
A society that values free speech, yet prohibits "hate speech" is a contradiction. It's a square circle, a married bachelor.
That being said, I get what you are saying, and trying to push you to examine what the consequences would be if you got your way. The nature of religion is that each religion thinks they are correct, to the exclusion of all other religions. If one religion has a belief that former members are bad (for whatever reason), and current members believe in the religion and agree, you are crossing into the individual purview. As we have seen on previous pages, people do the shunning, a lot of times in excess of what the WT would suggest.
What you really want is to outlaw the beliefs of the group, in favor of your beliefs.
And they are using God to coerce people into doing what they want not to protect people but to prevent them from leaving too if they find out they have been lied to.
Maybe. It doesn't matter. At one point we all had this conversation:
Group: "Hi, we're a group with a lot of rules. We are pretty strict with our rules, but we love people that agree with us and hate the dissenters. We think former group members are super bad, and we don't talk to them. Here is a list of our rules. Do you want to join?"
You: "Yep."
People in the religion agree with it. You don't agree, and you left. Great. The shunners still agree. You will have to force them into a position they don't want to hold.
In the WTS there is no honorable way to leave.
Yes there is: "Hey guys, this isn't for me. Thanks."
There is no compromise. No "agree to disagree".
Yeah, that's the nature of religion. They think they are right. It's the nature of political positions too. Which is why you want to stay away from this line of reasoning.
You are the "walking dead" and if JWs have contact with us then they too are dead.
Not really. Probably to the hard-core ones.
People do have the right to join any group they want and believe what they want. They do not have the right to force others to join or believe the same thing.
The WT isn't forcing anyone to join or stay. Don't brush aside your accountability, and don't brush aside your "loved ones" accountability either.
And the GROUP leaders do not have the right to force anyone to do things that are ethically wrong, no matter how much they want to control everyone.
They aren't.
Mandated shunning, as currently practiced in the Jehovah's Witnesses organization, is a crime in Jehovah's eyes. God is Love, and the disfellowshipping doctrine as currently practiced is anti-love, antiChrist.
The Bible makes clear that justice took place in the city gate in ancient times, so that those serving as judges were in view of many witnesses as a deterrent to corruption.
The verses in John's writings and Paul's writings and the gospels that are pointed to by WTBT$ leaders as support for their current disfellowshipping doctrine don't fit such an application when they are examined in context and in harmony with the rest of the scriptures.
Whether or not the nations currently feel that mandated shunning in the Jehovah's Witnesses organization is crime or not won't change the fact that Jehovah thinks it's a crime.
He has already said what He will do to remedy the matter.
Revelation 17:15-18
"He said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. And the ten horns that you saw and the wild beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire. For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished. And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”"
God appointed pagan kings to do His will in the past, like Cyrus. God will permit the governments to remove the "mandated banning" business of the Jehovah's Witnesses organization when the governments tear down the religious institutions. It's already as good as done.
Group: "Hi, we're a group with a lot of rules. We are pretty strict with our rules, but we love people that agree with us and hate the dissenters. We think former group members are super bad, and we don't talk to them. Here is a list of our rules. Do you want to join?"
You: "Yep."
Really. Do you really think they are that up-front about it?
"oh yes. If your child decides to leave you won't be able to talk to him again unless he comes back. Still want to join?
