the sounding of the trumpet

by enoughisenough 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    neat blue dog,

    Keep in mind that the illiterate ramblings and definitions of the WT are not shared by biblical scholars and are cause for incredible "face in palm" cringing when even reading their ideas.

    Let's unpack it:

    1. Jesus went bodily to heaven in the same body he was crucified with.

    "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

    Jesus is in heaven right now in his same crucified body (albeit a "glorified body" fit for heaven AND earth) and will come again in that same body:

    “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

    This is a most critical Christian topic because if Christ’s body was not resurrected, we have no hope that ours will be (1 Corinthians 15:13, 16). In fact, apart from Christ’s bodily resurrection, we have no Savior, no salvation, and no hope of eternal life. As the apostle Paul said, our faith would be “useless” and the life-giving power of the gospel would be altogether eliminated.

    This is why the WT denies the bodily resurrection of Christ. It is inherently connected to our salvation, which the WT seeks to steal from mankind in a number of heretical ways.

    2. Believers will always be with Jesus and like Jesus with a "glorified body" just like the one that Jesus has now....

    "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." - 1 John 3:2-3

    The three great doctrines of Christianity were utterly ignored or badly scrambled by Russell because he had absolutely no training. He was just a men's clothing salesman who believed that he himself was personally prophesied in scripture. He was a sociopathic madman. We must never forget this.

    The three great doctrines of Christianity are Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification. The definitions of these biblical hopes are described in detail all over the internet in numerous Christian sites from different denominations. These three doctrines don't change even though Christians may disagree on non-essential doctrines.

  • Vanderhoven7


    I agree that there will be a new heaven and a new or renewed earth. As I see it, the new heaven will descend to earth...probably at the close of the millennium when all the nations are subdued to the Son and His church and the wicked destroyed.

    The distinction is that church will then dwell within the new heavenly city and temple, whereas the nations on the renewed heaven on earth will be the new reality.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze


    You are correct that you have wandered off the WT plantation a bit. Maybe I should have credited you for that. But why not take the time to first discover sound Christian doctrine? The bible is clear that there is such a thing:

    1Ti_1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    Tit_1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

    Tit_2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

    • My take: No one is resurrected to heaven, and everyone is resurrected to perfect life on earth - in 2 stages:

      Scripture says that our "citizenship is in heaven", that "we will always be with the Lord", The souls of slain believers are seen in heaven in Rev. 6

      1st: the righteous, those who died believing in Christ, with living Christians changed in "the twinkling of an eye."

      But I would not have you ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and arose again, so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall be forever with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thess. 4

      Christian believers yet alive, and those that have died (Christian era souls in heaven) are resurrected / changed at the same event - the rapture.

      2nd: The unrighteous, unbelievers/unknowing of Christ, at the end of Christ's millennium.

      This is in line with sound doctrine.

      Since a) the ransom immediately restores what was lost, i.e. Adamic perfection, every human being will have perfect human bodies - they will not have to "grow" to physical perfection. (w75 5/1 p. 278 par. 28) and

      Agreed. You are describing the doctrine of Glorification where the sin nature is completely eradicated and our bodies are made fit for life in heaven AND earth.

      b) a ransom can only restore what was actually lost: 144,000 immortal Melchizedek king/priests appearing in heaven from earth perverts the truth of what Adam actually forfeited. (he never lost a heavenly hope for any of his descendants!)
      Jesus is rightfully called the First and the Last and “the firstborn from the dead,” because he was the first & last human to be resurrected to heaven. (Revelation 1:17; Acts 26:23; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5)

      This cannot be accurate because Jesus comes and the end of the tribulation all the way to earth (as opposed to in the air/clouds at the rapture) with his saints. This event is spoken of in both the OT and the NT.

      ZECHARIAH 14:3-5

      3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

      4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst of it toward the east, and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

      5 And you shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal: yes, you shall flee, like you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with you.

      1 THESSALONIANS 3:13 (Paul)

      13 To the end he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

      JUDE 14-15

      14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with tens of thousands [millions] of his saints.

      15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have

  • Vanderhoven7

    Jesus is coming for his saints I Thes. 4

    Later Jesus will come with His saints. Jude 14-15

    The dead will be raised and the judgment of the nations begins.

    And my take is that many of the inventions of man and his creative works including artistic creations will be preserved and used. Nothing beautiful will be lost. Wishful thinking... perhaps.

  • DesirousOfChange

    It gets more and more fairytale like as this thread progresses. ~ Vanderhoven7

    Well, that certainly seems reasonable considering it seems to be just that -- a fairytale (sic).

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    Well, that certainly seems reasonable considering it seems to be just that -- a fairytale (sic).

    Only to those that have not researched the evidence for The Resurrection that changed world history forever.

  • Vidqun

    Enoughisenough, good question. In the end each one must examine the evidence and decide for himself. Hopefully we'll soon find out. Here's the relevant scriptures:

    Set day, man appointed to judge: Acts 17:31 = 1000 years (Rev. 20:3, 4) Kings/priests to judge 1000 years.

    Judgment Day: Matt. 10:15; 11:22; 11:24; 12:36 = 1000 years (?)

    Each to render an account: Rom 14:12 (Rev. 20:12, 13) (?)

    Resurrect him in the last day: John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 7:37; 11:24; 12:48 = 1000 years (?)

    Note, "judgment day" occurs only in Matthew, each time in a similar context. John uses the "last day," also in the same context. Only one I am sure of, is the first, Acts 17:31. This fits in with Rev. 20:3, 4. Really not sure about the rest. Daniel will be resurrected "at the end of days," when our history stops and the new history begins, probably at the beginning of the 1000 years (Dan. 12:13).

  • truth_b_known


    I think you are on to something.

    Look at history. The history of the Jewish people and their religion.

    We are introduced to 2 religious groups in Israel in the New Testament - the Sadducees and the Pharisees. The Sadducees outnumbered the Pharisees and had more influence. Their role in society was to keep the Israelite religion free from outside influence and preserve the Mosiac Law as well as temple worship. The majority of Israelite history has the Israelites holding no belief in life after death. The New Testament shows that the Sadducees strongly held this belief.

    The Pharisees on the other hand did were religious progressives. They believed that God was soon going to end all the wicked on the Earth, usher in this utopian kingdom on Earth, and raise all the righteous dead in new bodies. The Pharisees believed in resurrection.

    There was a third set of beliefs by Jews - immortality. In Josephus' writings we are made aware of the Essenes who believed that a person consists of 2 parts - a body that disintegrates and an immortal soul that would enjoy a pleasant afterlife.

    Keep in mind, most Israelites were neither Sadducees or Pharisees. There are no writings that reveal what the every day Israelite believed. What we do know is it comes down to one of three views -

    • Annihilation (The oldest held belief)
    • Immortality (Thanks to Greek influence)
    • Resurrection

    Check out Bart Ehrman's book Heaven and Hell - A History of the Afterlife.

  • BoogerMan

    Twelve scriptures show that Christ Jesus has been assigned to judge mankind – both dead and alive; John 5:22,28,29, John 12:48; Acts 10:42, Acts 17:31, Romans 14:9, 2 Cor. 5:10, 2 Tim. 4:1, 1 Pet. 4:5, Rev. 11:18 & 20:12.

    I don't believe he will punish/destroy anyone for their ignorance or wrong understanding of a Bible teaching/s. So all the JW's who have seriously judged me for no longer believing what they believe, might want to consider Matthew 7:1 & Romans 14:4 & James 4:12, since they are jumping on Christ's judgement seat.

  • enoughisenough

    a few more of my thoughts on the subject...The "bible teach" book referring to the 144,000 said they would be resurrected during Jesus Presence. 1 cor 15:23 but each one in his own proper order: Christ the first fruits afterward theose who belong to the Christ during his presence. ( of which the claim is 1914 ) other translations say his coming or when he comes back. The last day and judgement day appear to be the same day from what bit of sorting out I have done. As far as Jesus ( coming back is concerned, 1Cor. 11: 26 For wheneveryou eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he comes. If one were to believe the JW teaching that Christ came in 1914, why are they still having memorial? If one were to believe the 1914 date, then that would be "the last day" for the claim is that is when he started resurrecting the "anointed' to heaven. Jesus plainly told his followers in the 6th chp of John that he would resurrect them on the "last day". Daniel was told that he would stand up for his part at the End of the days-which would be a last day. If any of my thinking is sound, it debunks 1914 and the faithful and discreet slave being anointed and going immedially to heaven when they die. As I am understanding it NO ONE gets resurrected until the last day when Jesus is evidently present That would also all the ones who have died and people think they are in heaven looking down upon them. /// Rev. 11 is about the 7th trumpet ( the last one ) vs 18 But the nations became wrathful and your own wrath came, and the appinted time came for the dead to be judged and to REWARD you slaves the prophets and the holy one and those fearing your name...and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth. 1 Cor 15:52 in a moment ,in the blink of an eye, DURING the LAST trumpet, For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptible and we will be changed....WE are here. Those ruining the earth are here! The last trumpet ( the 7th ) hasn't come about the last DAY isn't here ( I don't see Daniel ) So where I am sitting, I don't think the first resurrection has started where in immorality is put on, let alone the second resurrection. So much for my circular reasoning and ramblings.

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