the sounding of the trumpet

enoughisenough

I will risk showing my ignorance but I had some questioning thoughts in my head lately...maybe those more scholarly than me have insight. JW teach that the anointed who now die go immediately to heaven. When Lazarus had died Martha said she knew he would rise on the last day. 1 Cor 15;52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during THE LAST TRUMPET. For the Trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed........54 "Death is swallowed up forever." a referred scripture 1 Thess 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's TRUMPET , and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. So here are some dots I am connecting that maybe aren't connected at all: Martha said LAST day, I Cor 15:52 says LAST Trumpet. To my way of thinking, and I stand to be corrected, it appears to me that the TRUMPET hasn't sounded yet. Death hasn't been swallowed up forever as far as I can discern! If the Trumpet did sound already, it has kept on tooting beings the JW teach the anointed who are now dieing go to heaven. ( actually Christendom teaches the dead go to heaven as well-whereas from where I am sitting, those who have died will stay in the grave until that LAST TRUMPET) editing in this scripture that lends to my thinking: John6: 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on THE LAST DAY. see also John 6:54, John 6:39, John 6:44, These scriptures support resurrection on THE LAST DAY--I see nothing that suggests there is an ongoing resurrection-as soon as someone with a "heavenly calling" dies and is immediateley resurrected to heaven.

Vidqun

What might solve your problem is if there are two resurrections. Here's my understanding of the resurrection:

1) First resurrection: The first resurrection, also referred to as the “earlier resurrection” (cf. Phil. 3:10, 11 Roth), is an important chronological marker (1 Cor. 15:51-53; 1 Thes. 4:15-17; Rev. 6:11; 11:1, 14, 15, 18; 20:4-6). It will be initiated in the time of the seventh and last trumpet (Rev. 11:15, 18). Next in line are the two witnesses who are publically resurrected (Rev. 9:11; 11:3, 11, 12). Last group is to be caught up in the air during Jesus’ Second Coming. They will have no advantage over those resurrected earlier. Although the time frame for their ascent will differ, they will receive the same reward (Matt. 24:29-31; 1 Thes. 4:15-17 CSBO).

2) Second resurrection: This is to take place during the Millennium (Dan. 12:13; John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15; Rev. 20:11-14). Rev. 20:5a is out of place here and appears to be a later insertion. The verse is omitted by various MSS (NA28 Apparatus). Jesus referred to judgment and resurrection “in the last day.” This must refer to the Millennium, which forms part of the Lord’s Day (John 6:44; 12:48; 2 Cor. 15:23-28; Rev. 1:10; cf. 2 Pet. 3:8).

Sea Breeze

Hi enoughisenough,

You are not ignorant. Understand that Russel had no biblical training whatsoever when he started teaching the bible though the Watchtower. Subsequent leaders and adherents never went to a bible school either. Christians don't have the confusion that we WT educated have.

Man is constituted by three parts. All three are spoken of as YOU in the bible. (soul, body & spirit) Bible writers assume that the reader understands this. When the three parts are joined together, you are alive. When the three parts are separated, you are dead.

Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour. 17And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also. 18And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin. - Gen. 35: 16-18

So, building on this understanding... after a person has died, a resurrection occurs when the soul, body and spirit are joined back together again. Just because a believer goes to heaven (his soul), doesn't mean that a resurrection has occurred. Dead souls (not resurrected spirits) are described in heaven in Rev. 6: 9.

This chart by J. Vernon McGee describes in detail the First and the Second Resurrection. It must be read from left to right.... as if you are standing at a parade and the procession is marching past you. This gives the time sequence.

The key take away is that the "First Resurrection" is in three parts. This is the one that we want. The second resurrection is "unto damnation". That is the one that we don't want.

Everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected at some point, some to a resurrection of life, others to a resurrection of damnation. The chart below may be easier. It can be read from left to right:

First Resurrection (also called the resurrection of the righteous):

1. Jesus as first fruits

2. Believers at the Rapture

3. Tribulation Martyrs along with the OT saints

BoogerMan

My take: No one is resurrected to heaven, and everyone is resurrected to perfect life on earth - in 2 stages:

1st: the righteous, those who died believing in Christ, with living Christians changed in "the twinkling of an eye."

2nd: The unrighteous, unbelievers/unknowing of Christ, at the end of Christ's millennium.

Since a) the ransom immediately restores what was lost, i.e. Adamic perfection, every human being will have perfect human bodies - they will not have to "grow" to physical perfection. (w75 5/1 p. 278 par. 28) and

b) a ransom can only restore what was actually lost: 144,000 immortal Melchizedek king/priests appearing in heaven from earth perverts the truth of what Adam actually forfeited. (he never lost a heavenly hope for any of his descendants!)

Jesus is rightfully called the First and the Last and “the firstborn from the dead,” because he was the first & last human to be resurrected to heaven. (Revelation 1:17; Acts 26:23; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5)

Sea Breeze

Boogerman,

With all due respect, that is not your take. You got that from Watchtower.

This is the long-time doctrine of the resurrections:

https://www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html

Christians are united on this, with widespread agreement. The WT has a 100% failure rate with end-time prophecies. Why would you believe anything they print. Virtually any biblical scholar would disagree with what you posted.

Vanderhoven7

Re. Christians and the first resurrection

The only thing I can say with assurance, biblically speaking, is that the next conscious moment after death, Christians will see Jesus Christ.

Now some believe that that first conscious moment will occur immediately at death, others believe it will be at the second coming (parousia) of our Lord, where Christians are raised immortal in the twinkle of an eye.

So what's the difference?

Just about nil.

Certainly nothing to separate Christians from fellowship.

neat blue dog

Sea Breeze:

It doesn't make sense to say the resurrection only refers to a reuniting of all previous elements including a physical body, as the Bible says we will "always" be with the Lord, and 'in the resurrection men are not married but are as angels in heaven'. Jesus didn't say 'in some unique type of resurrection', he said in "the" resurrection.

Vanderhoven7

Re. The General Resurrection

This obviously occurs sometime after the first resurrection and will include all mankind.... and your neighbor that lives across the street. The purpose of this resurrection will to judge those who died in their sins according to their works, including every idle word spoken. Judgement will be according to works and knowledge.

I see this as occurring during the millennial reign of Christ. And I have a hope toward God that the power of the cross will extend into the millennium and that many who did not hear the gospel or even the name of Jesus will hear it and be able to respond as we did in life.

Those of the first resurrection will be tasked with ruling over these resurrected people's or nations with strong correction, until Christ's rule is fully established on the earth.

To tell you the truth, I don't see how this all fits together...but I do believe that in the end God/Christ will be the big winner and the devil the big loser. Death will be cast onto the lake of fire and will be no more. And the nations will flow to God's holy city and temple and God will be all in all.

Sounds like a fairy story.... yes, but even better.

BoogerMan

@ Sea Breeze: "With all due respect, that is not your take. You got that from Watchtower."

Are you serious???? When did the WT say no one is going to heaven?; when did they say the 2 resurrections were 1000 years apart?; when did they say Jesus is the first and last human to go to heaven?

With all due respect, which part/s did you imagine are the WT's " take"?

enoughisenough

Vidqun, I have understood there being 2 resurrections...but from the dots I had connected it appears to me that even that first resurrection wouldn't start until the last day.( instead of an ongoing resurrection as soon as people die ) Then I am wondering if the "judgement day" and the "last day" are the same time period. It seems to me they may be-some being judged righteous and having a part in the first resurrection.

the sounding of the trumpet

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