Only 144.000 christians faithful since Jesus?!
The wording in the subject-line is taken from a “Bible Research”-thread, started by MDS on Feb 3, 2000 (see link below). It dealt with the WTS as the “faithful and discreet slave”. The reason why I take this part of the original thread to the main-forum is, that it brought back to my mind some questions, that I have never been able to answer. And I hope that you may be able to help me!
It’s a question regarding the 144.000 anointed-teaching. MDS’ post made me think: If there were literally hundreds of thousands of christians, that died in the “ten persecutions” during emperor Nero’s time, were they not of the anointed? If the historical records show, that there have been several hundreds of thousands christians through the years, that were willing to die for their faith, the WT-claim, that the “high calling” was closed in 1935 – as the total of 144.000 anointed since Jesus’ and the apostles days was reached by then - is proved ad absurdum.
Unless of course – unless, as the WTS claims, these christians were not true christians or real anointed christians. But how could anyone determine that today? And how could the first christians "limit" their preaching and baptizing so the total of 144.000 would not be reached until 1935 C.E. (BTW - they did not even know about the 144.000-limit until the Revelation was presented to John at the end of the first century)
Besides the WT-chronology, that has been proven to build on warm air only, this – as I see it as a JW - is a serious problem for the WT-teaching of the 144.000 (and here especially the close of the high calling in 1935).
Does anybody know sources that can tell the circa-numbers of true / professed christians that have lived and died for their faith in the first 3 centuries?
Is that a problem for others than me? Tell me how you solved that problem or why it maybe is/was no problem for you!
PS: Sorry if I bring up an "old" issue, that has been discussed on the board before. But I’m only halfway in digging up the gold that has been posted on this board through the months by you “odtimers”...
So, please be patient, if we newbies find something that for us is, hmm – should I call it "new light"...?!
PPS: You can read the complete original thread at this link:
edited for a typing-error in the subject-line
Since there were millions of Israelites and 3000 of them were baptized in ONE DAY according to the Bible, I think it rather unlikely that is has taken 2000 years to fill up the other 141000 slots. Remember once they get to heaven they are immortal and unable to be destroyed unlike the angels.
I remember one time at Bethel, one of the guys was reading a book about early Christian persecution that said millions of Christians were put to death in the arenas etc. We just kind of looked at each other and didn't go on with the thought.
my question is this ,what # did they start the 144,00 with in the jw org, if there were obviously ones before the jws.....and why isn't this public knowlege......
no more than about 50,000 Witnesses ever partook at the memorial and that was in 1935. the number of partakers dropped a good deal the next year.
the teaching of 144,000 being the 'only ones' was a false teaching from the Adversary at an attempt to "close the doors" and "shut up the kingdom of HEAVEN before men."
There are WAY more than 144,000 going to heaven. 144,000 were just the number of "Israelites" who were fleshly descendents of Abraham from Jacob that would be "firstfruits" in the kingdom, due to their "obedience" to the good news. Standing before the throne there is a "great multitude" from EVERY tribe, and nation, and people, and tongue. In Revelation 5:9,10 it says these same people from EVERY nation, and tribe, and people, and tongue will be priests of God and will rule as kings upon the earth.
The Door was open to "anyone" thirsting, anyone seeking, anyone asking. For Jah-eshua is he who "opens so that no one shuts, and shuts so that NO ONE opens." The Door is STILL open to anyone who would like to "come in."
My math says,
144,000 - 3,000 (in one day) = 141,000
141,000 - 30,000 (1935 joel) = 111,000
111,000 - 11,000 (depends) = 100,000
100,000 divided by 2000 (years*) = 50 per year over 2,000 years.
those peeps must have had "sum" super duper awesum organization
to hand me down all that truth over two milleniums. and without a
break. (give me a break please)
Actually, I believe that the little flock, is exactly that ... a little flock, whether 144,000 I can't be so dogmatic, but compared to the great crowd mentioned, it's a numbered class as opposed to the great crowd which is not, thus my thought is, that yes, the "144,000" represent the ruling class with Jesus, those who made their "calling and election sure", the best of the best so to speask, who receive immortality, while the great crowd are a secondary spiritual class who just didn't live up to their full consecration.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, it's not God's fault!
Or maybe, just maybe, when Jesus spoke of his "little flock" in Luke 12:32, it was because they were such a small number then. Scripture clearly shows there are not TWO classes, but rather ONE CLASS of Christians, God knows no favorites. The "other sheep that do not belong to this fold" mentioned in John 10:16? The "fold" mentioned was the Jewish Nation, the "other sheep" were us gentiles. For Jesus goes on to say that the "other sheep" will join the fold, there will be ONE FLOCK. (John 10:16).
144,000 is 12x12x1000, it symbolizes fullness (1000) by 12 tribes, and 12 apostles preaching to the nations. 144,000 is symbolic of the fullness of those who are redeemed of Israel and the gentiles. SO easy guys, stop making in hard.
Yeru (like ALL CHRISTIANS of the annointed
There is more of heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosphy, Horatio.
I agree with you! but answer me this, who are the great crowd mentioned in Revelation 7?
And can you explain to me "many are called and few are chosen"? Called for what? Chosen for what?
It is my understanding that all through the gospel age, thse past trwo thousand years, Jehovah has been calling out a people for his name, or rather for his sons name, many are called, called to what? sacrifice as Romans 12:1 suggest, and follow Christ, for what purpose, to be joint-heirs with him as Described in Galatians, to do what? To reign with him, once they have proven faithful to their vow of consecration. What is the reward aside from a crown? Immortality! Life within oneself, a gift not so easily given away!
Thus, this is mt premise, yes, you are right, there is only one call. one class of Christians. However, that being said, of all those who run the race, only a little flock obtain the prize, what of the others? The others who sacrificed? The others who as Jesus, gave up their life-rights on earth to be with the Lord in heaven? What happens to them? They did not make their "calling and election" sure, to gain the prize of immortality, what now? They cannot return to earth, having forfeited that goal, they fall under the great company class. Notice that the two groups have the same background, except, one is given crowns, the others are given palm branches, BOTH are "before" the throne IN heaven!
Answer me this, do you believe humans will live on earth? If so what will they be?
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, it's not God's fault!
The answer to what are we called? Called to a life in Christ, few answer the call, but enough to make a Great Crowd. Your words are that only a "little flock finish the race, I would assert that few choose to enter the race, but the majority DO finish because as you said, "Life within oneself, a gift not so easily given away" is not something most who enter the race would want to be disqualified from . for the 144,000 verses the Great crowd standing before the throne try this...
The 144,000 symbolizing the fullness of those who belong to Christ are sealed, meaning ALL who belong to Christ are sealed. Then once the fullness is called, John sees that they are indeed a GREAT CROWD, standing before the throne.
Do I believe humans will live on earth? As in a paradise on earth? Well, Heaven is where God is, and towards the end of Revelations we see that the Throne of God< the New Jerusalem is on earth, so the distinction of HEAVEN and EARTH becomes mute.
Just my thoughts.
Yeru, whose views do not necesasarily reflect those of the Roman Catholic Church (and for sure not those of the WTBTS INC of ANY state.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.