When Will Bin Laden Not Hate Us?

by TR 34 Replies latest jw friends

  • BeautifulGarbage
    BeautifulGarbage
    ...do we respect their lifestyle and believes?

    I suppose it would depend on which beliefs you are referring. Such as some interpetations of the Sharia (Islamic Law).

    Why would I respect a belief that allows women being stoned to death for adultry while the "guilty" man only has to swear on the Koran that he never had sex with the woman and gets off scott free?

    Why would I respect a belief that allows women being slaughtered by their own male relatives, while law enforcement turns a blind eye, in order to save face in a disgusting practice called Honor Killing?

    Why would I respect a belief that doesn't, for the most part, allow women to divorce their abusive husbands? Oh, and if they do manage to get a divorce, they lose their children. Kids are property of the husband.

    Why would I respect beliefs that promotes the abuse and subjection of women as a whole? I despise it within the WTS and I despise it within the Muslim world.

    Go to war over it? Not sure on that one...hmmm maybe..I am a female.

    For women, Islam leaves much to be desired.

    Andee

    Edited by - BeautifulGarbage on 13 February 2003 22:1:52

    Edited by - BeautifulGarbage on 13 February 2003 22:3:5

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    sunstarr; semantics over what fundamentalism is perhaps not productive. The fundamentalism is a focus and unifying force. Under different circumstances they could be left-wing atheists. What drives them to lives of terrorism are the factors I've outlined previously. Terrorists of the nature we are talking about exist for the reasons I've outlined, chiefly, poverty and ignorance. These are facts which I've yet to see any one rebutt. If you kill the terrorists without addressing the poverty and ignorance, then you just get more terrorists in their place.

    TR; Eh?

    Yeru is on to something here that I agree with. Giving people hope.

    I was under the impression that Yeru was on about bombing the sh!t out of things for two generations. If you call that hope, for either side of the conflict, you view things a little differently to me..

    You seem to object to the idea of aid. That is pretty dumb. Do you realise how much foreigh aid the $43 billion millitary budeget increase would buy, or what the extra money allocated to the current millitary build-up could do if applied to fighting poverty.

    You'd rather spend money blowing people up, which doesn't even solve the reasons they do stuff that makes you want to blow them up, than address the issues that make them want to blow things up.

    So, rather than say, making sure that the number of people without clean drinking water is reduced to 10% of its current level in five years (an achievable goal), you'd rather bomb people, to the same dollar value. Rather than help set up and fund secular schools, you'd rather drop bombs to the same dollar value.

    You can think that way. I don't. I think it's dumb and short-sighted to ramp up milliraty spending when this does not address the reasons people become terrorists, as it is the reasons you have to fight to overcome terrorism.

  • sunstarr
    sunstarr

    Abaddon,

    To clarify, I was not arguing semantics. Since you failed to provide a definition for "fundamentalism," and since this word can mean a variety of things to a variety of people, I was attempting to cover either extreme in my argument.

    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but your suggested path of resolution consists primarily of addressing the problems of poverty and ignorance within the areas that terrorism is seemingly sprouting. As to the notion of the poverty afflicting the people of those areas, to where should we look for a solution? To which nations should we look to funnel money in the direction of the poor people populating these areas? Or, should we look to the extremely wealthy dictators of the very countries where poverty flourishes? If that is the case, do you think these rich, powerful people will simply write a check to help the economic state? From where will this money materialize?

    Secondly, as to the idea of the supposed ignorance. What exactly are these people ignorant of? Is it not their faith and beliefs that lead them to the terrorism? Most everyone on this board has either been one of Jehovah's Witnesses or has been affiliated with them in some manner. How do you educate a JW? What do you teach them? Should you teach them Christianity? Atheism? Islam? What knowledge would you give to a person whose beliefs are founded on the destruction of the Infidel? We're not talking about uninformed people. These people are making conscious decisions to attack others because they feel they are directed by God. In a world full of civilized nations that preach "freedom of religion," how do you combat a system of beliefs that propagate the destruction of all who do not comply?

    In summation, my two questions to you would be:

    1. From where does the money come?

    2. What education should be given?

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Yippie, a proper response!

    Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but your suggested path of resolution consists primarily of addressing the problems of poverty and ignorance within the areas that terrorism is seemingly sprouting. As to the notion of the poverty afflicting the people of those areas, to where should we look for a solution? To which nations should we look to funnel money in the direction of the poor people populating these areas? Or, should we look to the extremely wealthy dictators of the very countries where poverty flourishes? If that is the case, do you think these rich, powerful people will simply write a check to help the economic state? From where will this money materialize?

    If we can spend billions going to war to try and sort out a problem, and dedicate manpower to the task, all in the name of self defence, and STILL not address the issues that cause the problem, why can't we use the same money and manpower to tackle the problems, in the name of self defence. I'm not talking about altuism here.

    Secondly, as to the idea of the supposed ignorance. What exactly are these people ignorant of? Is it not their faith and beliefs that lead them to the terrorism?

    Well, it can't be their religion, as the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful. Therefore it's the espousal of their religion, their specific 'fundamentalist' faith and beliefs. The reason that they are susceptable to this unpleasent and violent interpretation of their faith is that they have nothing else to give their lives meaning, and are inculcated with a hatred of the West (fed by the bias of the West that can be observed in Israeli-West relations) by such education that they do receive. The Bin-Ladins (wealthy) are not the representative one's, most come from poor uneducated backgrounds. The only education they receive is that funded by the rich 'fundamentalists'.

    If you really think that Imlash would rather die, than marry Malasha and have kids, whilst holding down a decent job that keeps his family fed and clothed, knowing that they'll get a chance of a higher education if they work hard at school, then I think we approach this with different base assumptions about the natur of man.

    Most everyone on this board has either been one of Jehovah's Witnesses or has been affiliated with them in some manner. How do you educate a JW? What do you teach them? Should you teach them Christianity? Atheism? Islam? What knowledge would you give to a person whose beliefs are founded on the destruction of the Infidel?

    Free, good quality secular schools. Foreign aid to address some of the severest problems. A cancellation of import restrictions that aid Western farmers by allowing them to not have to compete with cheaper third world produce, allowing them to earn a better living. An international concord to ensure that cash crop producers get a fairer percentage of the profit made on their produce.

    Two generations later, with a lot less dead people, and no more money spent than would have been spent in a 'war' state, you have a secular society. It's simple.

    We're not talking about uninformed people.

    Yes we are. If you think 'they' are informed, I think you're really straying into unfounded assertion.

    These people are making conscious decisions to attack others because they feel they are directed by God.

    They are inculcated with a belief that that is god's will. THAT is part, but only part of the problem. Ask a well educated person with a nice house and a happy family and a decent job, who feels his country is not being shat over, if they want to die for a cause, gaining glory by killing the infidel (or the abortionist, or the Protestant, or the Catholic) and almost all will call the police.

    In a world full of civilized nations that preach "freedom of religion," how do you combat a system of beliefs that propagate the destruction of all who do not comply?

    Allow freedom of religion, but ensure that those countries that need greater sociological maturity move towards it by banning hate speech and sexual discrimination. Free trade, educational funding and fresh water will overcome the scruples of most. And I have no objection to action being taken against the reprobates by the UN.

    In summation, my two questions to you would be:

    1. From where does the money come?

    As explained above, we'd spend no more. We'd have to take the extinction of some outmoded and ineffcient agricultural industries in the West as a result of free trade. We'd pay more for coffee and bannanas. But being nice and winning people that way will cost no more in cash than going to war.

    2. What education should be given?

    As explained above, secular education.

    Take a step back and look at the way Europe was two/three hundred years ago. Some developing countries may have comparatively high levels of technology, but their societies haven't caught up yet, and they are religiously pugnatious and dogmatic, have sexual inequality, non-democratic governments, corrupt government, wide-spread ignorance... all things Europe had a few hundred years ago.

    A few generations of catch-up, and the difference will go for exactly the reasons it changed in Europe. It won't be perfect, as the West is far from perfect, but the response of an 18 year-old in a fomrer hotbed of terrorism, when asked to die for a religious cause, will be the same as most European 18 year-olds is today.

    No.

  • Realist
    Realist

    TR,

    what billion of dollars? the ones for israel?

    by the way...the US has one of the lowest foreign aid budgets of all western countries.

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