by logansrun 37 Replies latest jw friends
Well, I guess the pagans before the time of Christ had it right. The great spirit in the sky did have to have human sacrifices in order to be appeased. I thought this was so repugnant to the Jehovah in the bible, yet he required it of his own son? Something just doesn't seem right here!
Ken P.
It did not turn Jehovah's stomach when he required it of Jephthah in Judges 11. contrary to the popular JW sugar-coating, Jepthah's daughter did not go away to become a Gilead Missionary--she was burned as a human sacrifice. Read it out of any Bible other than the NWT. And Jepthah was not even a true worshipper!
Ravyn
Easy, Logans, very easy indeed. I don't put much stock in the bible. Those people who wrote it believed in the atonement doctrine, it's very easy to see. And thus I reject them and their doctrine that would make of God a diety with multiple personality disorder. Our god is ONE god, not many. They say he's many, and helplessly many. The one who wants justice don't get along with the one who wants Love and mercy. THAT'S GOT TO BE WRONG. That says that God is of TWO MINDS on a subject. 'nuh-uh, I ain't buying it. God is not of two minds on anything.
Hell man, we decided the JWs interpretation of the bible and of spirituality is wrong and we skated on 'em. so why can't we decide that the guys who wrote the bible are also wrong? I do it all the time.
And if you want to get into the "all scripture is beneficial" conversation, I'm ready. Let me know if that's something you want to thrash out, and we'll see what happens. Or you may have already punched through that one already by yourself.
Your friend,
francois
Francios Francois
Someone prove me wrong?
I dont have any desire to try and prove you, or anybody else, wrong in your beliefs. I would however like to here you understanding of the Lords evening meal. Do you believe that never happened? Or do you just attach a different meaning to it?
plum
Edited by - plmkrzy on 12 February 2003 19:52:15
Actually, I was just being my usual humorous self with that prove me wrong stuff. Left over from JW days, it is. But if I have to explain it, maybe it ain't funny.
Yes, I have an opinion about that, but I'm hoping that if you have one little shred of mercy, and I know you do, you'll let me answer you tomorrow.
I got my sleep study results back this afternoon: severe apnea. wakes up once a minute. stops breathing 48 times an hour for up to 65 seconds at a time, 15 minutes REM sleep per night. In other words by this time of night, I'm exhausted. However, I got my brand new CPAP machine today and with it a new mask and I'm getting ready to go play face-hugger from alien. But I will answer you about the evening meal and S.P. too. I haven't forgotten you all, I've just been too pooped to peep.
(I think you'll derive maximum enjoyment from the evening meal thingy. I hope so anyway.)
tomorrow then?
francois
P.S. Yes, I believe it happened. I believe the truth of it is far, far different than is presented by the JWs, as I do the events at Pentecost.
Edited by - francois on 12 February 2003 20:30:53
Francois,
Thanks for clearing that up; I thought you were a "100% Bible believin' chap" but I guess I was wrong. I have a hard time thinking of God these days (if a gun was put to my head and I was told to tell the truth I would confess to being an atheist) but I do feel that some form of Deistic belief is far, very far, more respectable than the typical Christian fundamentalist dogma. I appreciate your candor and philisophical enquirey and look forward to many mind expanding dialogues ;)
Best,
Bradley
Francois
Yes, I have an opinion about that, but I'm hoping that if you have one little shred of mercy
mercy?
oh...well ok but, just a day.
plum
Dearest Logansrun...
Here is the truth of the ransom, and why it took place as told by holy spirit:
In the beginning, when God began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth
was without form, and void, and the darkness was upon the face of the abyss, and
the spirit of God was moving upon the face of the waters. And God went on to
say, "Let there be light" and there came to be light. And God saw in the light
and the light was good. So God brought a division between the light and the
darkness; the light God called him Day, but the darkness he called Night. And
there came to be evening and then it was morning, one day (Genesis 1:1-5).
All things came to be made through him and without him was not anything made
that was made. And God saw all things that he had made and it was very good, and
God rested on the seventh day from all he had done. But while God was resting,
an enemy came during the night and sowed bad seed among the good seed; beginning
with the anointed cherub that was covering. When God saw the cherub, he spoke to
him saying, "You were in Eden, the garden of God, and every precious stone was
your covering; the sardis, the topaz, the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, the
jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, the carbuncle, and the gold was your settings
and engravings. On the day you were created they were prepared. I placed you as
an anointed cherub that was covering and protecting; on the holy mountain of God
I set you and in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were without
blame and error, until unrighteous was found in you. In the abundance of your
possesions, you became filled with violence and you sinned. So I have casted you
out from the mountain of God, you who are profaned and unclean. And the cherub
that was also covering drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire. Your
heart became haughty because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the
sake of your splendor. I cast you to the earth and exposed you before many to
set their eyes upon you. Because of the abundance of your unrighteousness and
all your lawless deeds you profaned your holy sanctuary; so I will bring forth
fire from the midst of you and it will certainly consume you. And I will turn
you into ashes upon the earth in the eyes of all who saw you." (John 1:3;
Genesis 1:31; 2:1, 2; Matthew 13:24-26; Ezekiel 28:13-18; Isaiah 14:12-19)
The anointed cherub was filled with violence and loved the reward of doing bad
more than the doing of good. He went forth gathering as much of the good seed,
starting with Adam, and drawing them to the Night. He goes about searching for
the seed, disgorging water like a river from his mouth to drown the seed in his
spirit to gather them with him. He first offered Adam knowledge, knowledge of
good and bad. If he would partake of the tree that would give him such
knowledge, he would become like God, knowing good and bad. Adam, in his
inexperience and his abundant desire to please himself reached out what was not
his to have... yet, and partook of the tree. He was given knowledge of good,
much knowledge of good. But also much knowledge of bad, such knowledge he was
not ready for. Such knowledge of bad gave Adam knowledge of pain, suffering,
unrighteousness, jealousy, anger, hate, and rebellion. The knowledge of bad was
so great that it was even manifested in his flesh as sickness, pain and even
Death. Because Adam was unable to handle the knowledge of bad, that knowledge
consumed him. He and all the seed that were born through him had the knowledge
of bad. As the seed spread, the badness of the sons of Adam became abundant in
the earth, for the very inclination of their hearts was bad all the time. So
when the seed bore fruit, the bad fruit was there also. The servants, the angels
of the household of God, came to him and said, "Master, did you not sow good
seed in the field, how then are there bad seed among us?" And God went on to
say, "An Enemy did this." (2 Peter 2:15; Revelation 12:9, 15 Genesis 3:5, 7, 22;
Galatians 5:19-21; Genesis 6:5; Matthew 13:27, 28)
There is one, who sits on a pale horse. He is one who is called Death, and Hades
is closely following him. This is he of whom our Father spoke saying, "O Death,
where is your victory? O Sheol, where is your destruction? Woe to him who's
greed is as wide as She'ol, and is like Death who is never satisfied." Death is
never satisfied, he wants to consume everything. God put a hedge over all he
created to protect it from Death, so that he could not consumne them. So at
night, since Death could not consume the life, he sowed some of his spirit into
the good seed; that any who accept such spirit will bear bad fruit belonging to
Death. By their fruits, they are known. When they accept such spirit in
themselves, they become sons of Death and belong to the darkness. Death would
then claim them as his own and consume them alive. Death would then have his
'victory.' (Revelation 6:8 Hosea 13:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Proverbs 27:20 Matthew
7:19, 20; 1 Thessalonians 5:7, 8)
When the servants saw all this, they said to him, "Do you want us to go out and
gather them?" But God answered them saying, "No, for by gathering in the bad
seed you might uproot the good seed with them. Let both grow together until the
harvest; and I will tell the reapers, 'Gather the bad seed first and bind them
in bundles to be burned, but gather the good seed into my house.' (Matthew
13:29, 30)
The light, who was with God, was beholding all these things. He was in the bosom
of the Father, day after day being the Father's delight. The light who was
called Day, loved the Father and was the very Son of the Father. The Son was one
who was hating the bad way and wanting to know good. He attended himself before
the Father listening to his voice and keeping all his words. The Son loved
wisdom and the doing of good for others. He wanted to use all the knowledge and
experience that he received from his Father and use it to help others and
glorify his Father. The Father knew his Son and loved him. He saw that his Son
had enough love and compassion in himself for others, that he desired to give
all things into the hands of his Son. The Son had great compassion for the sons
of Adam, for they all were dying. They were suffering pain, sickness and death.
All of them had no life in them and they all were being gathered to the
darkness, who is called Night. (John 1:18 Proverbs 4:3-9; 8:22-31; John 3:35)
In the heavenly realm, there are oceans, abysses and fountains of the water of
life everywhere. Such water bubbles up freely and flows everywhere in the
heavens. It was the face of this water that the spirit of God moved upon the
face of in the beginning, before the great separation. All who would drink of
this water would live forever. When they drink the water, the water fills them
with everlasting life such that they have life in themselves and have it in
abundance. The Son knew that if only the sons of Adam could drink this water,
they too would live forever. They would pass over from death to life and have
everlasting life, immediately. If only they could drink this water, the water
would become inside them a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting
life. (John 4:10, 14; John 7:37-39; John 5:24; John 10:10; Revelation 21:6)
A voice was heard in heaven. It was from the midst of the throne and it said,
"Who is worthy to open the heavens and let the rivers of the water of life flow
that the sons of Adam may drink and live forever?" But no one in heaven, or upon
the earth, nor under the earth had the authority to open the heavens and let the
rivers of the water of life flow. The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father,
was willing and wanting to be able to give such water to the sons of Adam. He
had great compassion and great love for the sons of Adam. The Son, however, did
not have the authority in heaven to open the heavens and give them the living
waters. The sons of Adam were dying, and Death and She'ol were gathering and
holding many of them captive. The Son loved the sons of Adam so much that he was
willing to surrender his soul to Death as a ransom in behalf of the sons of
Adam. No one has greater love than this, that he should surrender his soul in
behalf of others. (Proverbs 8:31; John 13:1; Matthew 20:28; John 15:13)
The Father, seeing the good in his Son and the great love and compassion that he
held in himself for others, allowed his Son to offer himself as a sacrifice to
Death in behalf of many. The Father loved the world so much that he gave them
his only begotten Son, so that anyone who believes in him will not be destroyed,
but have everlasting life. Although he was a Son, he learned obedienced from the
things he suffered. He did not know sin, but he was made to be sin that through
him he may bring many to righteousness. He carried our sickeness and our
illnesses were manifested in his flesh. He was stricked with afflictions and
sicknesses and he was being pierced for our transgressions. He was slaughtered
for our errors. The scourging that was meant for our peace was upon him. He was
reviled and stricken and hated by many although he had done no wrong and there
was no deception found in his mouth. He bore our sins in his own body and
endured the temptations that our flesh craved. In the days of his flesh, he made
petitions and supplications with strong outcries and tears to him who was able
to save him from Death, because of our sins that dwelt in his flesh. Yet he was
heard with favor because he feared the Father and desired to do the things that
was pleasing to him. While he was on earth he offered to anyone who was seeking,
anyone who was thirsting to come drink the water of life. He stood up among
crowds and cried out, "If anyone is thirsty let him come to me, and he who
believes in me let him drink, just as the scripture says about me, "Out from
within him shall flow rivers of living water." As many as did receive him, he
gave them this water to drink because they were putting faith in his name. He
gave them authority to become sons of God because they were putting faith in
him. These ones were not born of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of
the will of man, but of God. He went forth releasing and forgiving the sins of
many and bearing their sins in his own body. He gave life to their dead, gave
sight to their blind, took the leprosy from their bodies and bore it in his own
body, casted out those held by the spirits of the Adversary by faith in his
name, fed their hungry, healed his enemies, and made himself a servant to all
the sons of Adam. He came into the world, not to be ministered to, but to
minister and surrender his soul as a ransom in behalf of many. Everyone who was
asking from him he gave, and those who were taking his things away he did not
ask them back. He did not resist him that was evil, but he let them strike him
again because he would do no evil to anyone. Men took advantage of him, only
wanting to be cured and fed, yet he took care of them. When they abandoned him
he still loved them. He cared for the sheep although the Enemy was watching.
When the hour arrived the Enemy cut him off from the land of the living. He was
like a lamb being led to the slaughter, and like a sheep before the shearers he
has become mute. He would not open his mouth. (John 3:16; Hebrews 5:8; 2
Corinthians 5:21; Isaiah 53:3-12; 1 Peter 2:22-24; Hebrews 5:7; Psalms 51:1-19;
John 4:10; John 7:37-39; John 1:12; Matthew 8:17; Luke 4:23; Matthew 20:28; Luke
6:29, 30; John 6:26, 27; Luke 22:34, 32; Matthew 26:31; Isaiah 53:7)
He loved the world although the world hated him. He was the light, but men have
loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were wicked. Those
who do bad things hate the light and do not come to the light, because the light
will reprove them for the bad that is in them. But he that is honest and true
comes to the light, that the bad may be exposed. By his loving the discipline
received from the light, he will be trained by it and yield peaceable fruit,
namely righteousness. The Son continued to love the world although the world
hated him. He emptied himself of all his heavenly glory that he had before the
world was and took the form of a servant and came to be in the likeness of men.
When he found himself in the likeness of sinful flesh he humbled himself further
and was obedient, even obedient to death upon the tree. (John 3:19-21; Hebrews
12:10, 11; Romans 8:3; Philippians 2:7, 8)
Death demanded a ransom for all the loyal ones that he was holding captive. The
Father loved them and the world so much that he gave them his only begotten Son,
that any who believe in him will have everlasting life. The Son suffered in the
flesh bearing the sins of the world and being pierced because of our
transgression. He, who did not know sin was made to be sin, that for our sake
through him we become righteousness to God. The Son surrendered his soul to
Death as a ransom, that Death may release the loyal ones to God. But Death is a
liar and wanted to hold the loyal ones and the Son. Death is never satisfied. He
and Had'es who closely follows him, wants to consume everything. So the Father
loosened the pangs of Death from his Son because it was no longer possible that
his Son should continue to be held fast by Death. He did not leave the soul of
his Son in Had'es, nor did he allow him to see corruption. He was raised from
the dead destined to die no more. He became dead but now he is living
forevermore, and he has the keys of Death and of Had'es. When the Son ascended
on high from Death, he carried away the captives and gave gifts to the men whom
Death was holding. He gave them each a white robe and told them to rest a little
while longer, until the full number of their fellow slaves and their brothers
were filled, who were about to be killed as they had been. (2 Corinthians 5:21;
John 8:44; Proverbs 27:20; Acts 2:24, 31; Acts 13:34; Revelation 1:17, 18;
Ephesians 4:8-10; Psalms 68:18; Revelation 6:11)
The Father loved the Son and gave all things into his hands. He gave him the
keys of Death and of Had'es and made him Lord over both the living and the dead.
He made him both Lord and Christ, the Son whom Israel killed. The Father gave
him all authority in heaven and on the earth, even authority to sit on his
throne. At the appointed time of the Father, the Son was granted to pour out the
water of life upon the sons of Adam. The love for the sons of Adam was made
manifest through the Son. He saved the sons of Adam, not because of anything
they did in righteousness, but because of his own mercy and love he washed them
in the cleansing bath of regeneration and renewing in holy spirit which he
poured out richly upon them through his Son. He poured out his spirit upon every
sort of flesh, and the sons prophesied, the young men saw visions and the older
men dreamed dreams, even on men servants and maidservants he poured out his
spirit and they all prophesied. They had life in them and by their faith, they
kept living. The ones who received the free gift of holy spirit, the living
water from heaven, went forth sharing this good news to anyone wishing, anyone
asking, anyone seeking, anyone knocking. All who would drink of this water would
pass over from death to life. Death would have no hold on them. Such water has
been poured out freely and continues to be poured out upon anyone asking anyone
wishing anyone seeking. The Spirit and the bride keep on saying, "Come, drink
the water of life, holy spirit free!" The Father has said, "To anyone who is
thirsty I will give free from the fountain of the water of life. Anyone who
conquers will inherit all these things and I shall become his God and he will
become my son." This is the good news of the kingdom, the water of life which is
the free gift of God, which is made possible by the ransom that was given by
Christ. In the end, when the Son hands over the kingdom to his God and Father
after he brings to nothing all authority and all rule upon the earth, the last
enemy Death will be brought to nothing. Then the Father will say to him, "O
Death, where is your victory?" and to Had'es, "O Had'es, where is your sting?"
And the Father will swallow up Death forever, and Death will be no more. Neither
will mourning nor outcry nor pain be any more. The former things have passed
away. (Romans 14:8, 9; Acts 2:36; Matthew 28:18; Revelation 2:21; John 5:23;
Titus 3:4-7; Joel 2:28-32; Habakkuk 2:4; John 5:24; Acts 2:38; Revelation 22:17;
Matthew 24:14; Revelation 21:6, 7; 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Hosea 13:14; Isaiah
25:8; Revelation 21:4)
Let anyone hearing come, let anyone thirsting come, and let anyone wishing come
drink the water of life, free!
HI it's me! I woke up just long enough to log in and see that mongo post from Kes, and thoght I'd reassure PLM that mine will be quite a bit shorter. Simple statements of truth usually are. Remember, 2+2=4 and such as that? I try not to bloviate such quiet things all out of proportion. But then, to each his own.
I will return sometime tomorrow with my own offering and we'll see.
Don't forget to hold that day open for me now PLM. I'll try not to disappoint.
francois
So it is written...so shale it be done
