Okay...just why is the "ransom" so gr...

by logansrun 37 Replies latest jw friends

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  AlanF

  Hi logansrun,

  I've long realized that the doctrine of the ransom sacrifice, as taught by JWs and other Fundamentalists, is completely insane. It implies a God that is self-inconsistent and far more concerned with his own self-image than with minor concerns such as justice and mercy. By this I don't mean that there might not be some logic to this ancient notion, but that every claimed explanation I've ever seen, including that in the Bible which originates the idea, has huge holes in it. I've asked some of my dearest Christian friends -- not JWs -- to try to explain it, and they are always reduced to "the dog ate my homework" sorts of rationalizations.

  Basically, the ransom sacrifice doctrine states that "bad things must come in pairs". In other words, Adam did a bad thing, and the only thing that God would accept to cancel out that action was another bad thing. This is patently insane. Most Fundamentalist Christians are unable to understand why.

  The doctrine really says that divine justice is a farce. God sees Adam do a bad thing, and decides that someone ought to pay for it. Doesn't matter who -- just that someone must pay. Adam is mysteriously disqualified from paying for it, so God has to figure out something else. He decides that if he works his divine magic such that his Son is somehow turned into a human being -- which idea causes a host of other problems -- and then killed unjustly, this will somehow cancel out Adam's "sin".

  Unfortunately this is something like if your younger son raped your granddaughter, you decided that offering your older son the opportunity to die to "atone" for the younger son's sin would make everything alright (of course, you've already killed your younger son). Your older son accepts, and so you arrange for a kinky hit man to hang him on a meat hook and torture him to death. But you have magical powers, and so a couple of days later you "bring him back" and everything is hunky dory. Can anyone not see why such a scenario is totally farcical? Can anyone not see why the "ransom sacrifice" doctrine is equally farcical?

  You might find my rather long essay on this subject, "God's Justice: Sin, Imperfection, and the Ransom Sacrifice", at http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm of some interest.

  AlanF
• 

  Will Power

  Good Morning all

  This ransom topic is quite curious. I believe the people who use this angle of a perfect life sacrifice to pay a debt are totally missing the point. Stressing the DEATH is ignoring the real lesson, which is RESURRECTION!

  Mortals, which we all are, are afraid of death, have been since the first human witnessed another falling asleep never to wake again. They have spent to this day trying to explain it!

  If another dimension exists, (the spiritual), spoke of so often in the bible and other sacred writings, the coming of Jesus (from this realm) to show us the WAY is not to live a perfect life on earth (which is impossible for us humans) but to live a life of love to the best of our ability, (emulate care for the sick & those who cannot help themselves, use your life to better the lives of others) learn from our mistakes, and forgive others who make them, as we would like to be forgiven, (let he who is without sin). Jesus gave up his human life, not to be a sacrifice to take the place of or repay something, BUT to show mankind that as painful and hideous as death can be, there is something waiting for us all on the other side. FOR FREE. If we would like to follow him AND be in this glorious state, (paradise) we must believe the resurrection actually took place and that we may take advantage of this gift. This is GOOD NEWS for those who fear death and for those who do not know what to do with their life. This is the good news that was shared & preached by the apostles and those that witnessed Jesus appearances after his death.

  The joining of man made organizations who believe that THEY are the only WAY, are also missing the essence of the gospel. Condemning their members with rules upon rules, that must be adhered to to the letter on pain of everlasting destruction, concentrating on the negative with fear tactics is used for their OWN glory, (wow look how many members WE have)

  Fellowship among believers should be just that fellowship, used for encouragement, charity, good will, and spreading the NEWS by way of example and enlightenment not spiritual warfare, deception, manipulation and hiding. That is why the truth has nothing to fear, that is why a JW will never stand and defend. That is why their big thing is the DEATH of Jesus, not his RESURRECTION.

  I recently read a book that described each ones spirituality or lack of it, as having spiritual DNA. It is scientifically proven that the amount of activity in the temporal lobes of the brain directly coincides with what man calls spiritual awareness & experiences. (Epilectics experience these epiphanies during seizures, which can be electronically reproduced) Could be that if you find yourself unable to believe you are just one who has less activity where by joining a high control group, you force yourself to go thru the motions of a so called good life to ease your conscience, which makes you think that the DETAILS of cross or stake, clean vs. unclean, Diety vs angel, etc., etc. are OH So Important.

  OR could be that if NOT USED & exercised, the ability grows less & less.

  If Man cant figure it out then logically it must not be true. (Basis for reasoning book)

  Worst of all - An organization that says WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE figured it out follow US and support our printing company because YOU have no spirituality of your own (because you were born after 1935) so whatever you do, dont even try to use it. The ONLY hope YOU have is the one WE give you. SHAME on you WT.

  Regards, Will
• 

  VeniceIT

  Great points mentioned. I luv alambs simple truth!

  Chrisitanity is based on Human Sacrifice. And then what did they do, they celebrate this by and partake of the blood and body of christ. If only symbolically, this foundational belif of christianity is nothing more then human sacrifice and cannabolism!!!!! Talk about sick and depraved, and yet this practice is condemned and venerated every Sunday for most xtians, and once a year as JW's. Sick Sick Sick!!! Talk about an 'occult sacrifice', eating the flesh and drinking the blood.

  No wonder molesting children, letting people die for the blood issue, and other forms of abuse and shunning are no big deal to the WTS. Sick!!! sick!!! sick!!!!

  Ven
• 

  funkyderek

  I recently read a book that described each ones spirituality or lack of it, as having spiritual DNA. It is scientifically proven that the amount of activity in the temporal lobes of the brain directly coincides with what man calls spiritual awareness & experiences. (Epilectics experience these epiphanies during seizures, which can be electronically reproduced) Could be that if you find yourself unable to believe you are just one who has less activity where by joining a high control group, you force yourself to go thru the motions of a so called good life to ease your conscience, which makes you think that the DETAILS of cross or stake, clean vs. unclean, Diety vs angel, etc., etc. are OH So Important.

  Will, I find it astounding that you recognise that spiritual experiences are usually just due to abnormalities in the brain, and that such abnormalities can be artificially induced and lead to the same "spiritual awareness" and still think that it's those who don't have these experiences who have the problems. Knowing that it's just brain activity, why do you choose to believe that it's more?

  Here's an interesting article from Scientific American on the subject:
  http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00079AC8-53A5-1E40-89E0809EC588EEDF&catID=2
• 

  acsot

  Wow I love this topic! AlanF and Francois, I really enjoyed reading your posts (AlanF, I've read several of your essays already and they have been very helpful - thank you). Francois, please wake up soon (rested and refreshed). I want to learn more about your philosophy on this and how you came to it. I could never figure out how the WTS culled four basic qualities of God (love, wisdom, power, justice) from the Bible and said in effect: these are it and it explains al-you-need-to-know on the essence of who/what God is. Everything's on a scale, measured exactly and doled out accordingly. Of course, we all know how finicky the WTS about measuring things, they even have to do it with God's qualities. Never made sense to me. I was hobbled by using the Bible, and in particular the JW version and their "infallible" interpretation of it.

  So Francois, please wake up soon. Waiting........
• 

  Francois

  Dear PLMB,

  You stated , I would however like to here you understanding of the Lords evening meal. Do you believe that never happened? Or do you just attach a different meaning to it?

  I believe that it did happen, but not for the reason given by either the apostles or by Christianity, or by micro-minority, destructive cults like, say, Jehovahs Witnesses.

  The apostles and virtually all Christian organizations all say that Christ died for your sins, and Oh, by the way, WE are the mediator between Christ and you in all things. You need us to be your mediator between God and yourself.

  Never mind that the scriptures say that there is only one mediator between man and God, Jesus. The churches and JWs in particular have perverted the meaning of this symbolic supper just as they have perverted all else.

  The former Passover celebration commemorated the emergence of the Jews fathers from a state of racial slavery into individual freedom and joy. Now The Master was instituting a new remembrance supper as a symbol of the new dispensation wherein the enslaved individual emerges from the bondage of ceremonialism and selfishness and ecclesiastical authority (no matter how well disguised, as the JWs would have it) into the spiritual joy of the brotherhood and fellowship of the liberated faith sons and daughters of the living God.

  This new supper of remembering, when it is partaken of by those who are really God knowing, does not need to have associated with its symbolism any of mans puerile misinterpretations regarding the meaning of the divine presence, for upon all such occasions The Master is really present. This remembrance is the believers symbolic meeting with Him. When you become spirit-conscious, The Master is actually present, and his spirit fraternizes with the spirit of the Father, which indwells us each one: the kingdom of heaven is within you.

  Many times since leaving the JWs, I have assembled with my friends and celebrated this act of remembrance with them, and we do indeed detect via spirit sensitivity the presence of The Master. And we may do this at any time, and any number of times during the year. It is most beautiful the spiritual freedom which allows us to practice our beliefs and commune with the Spirit with no elders, no church and its ceremonialism, no fantastical interpretations of a man-made organizations to dictate and warp and make demands concerning our simple act of remembering.

  So I guess my answer to you is that yes, I do believe there was a last supper; I do not believe it must be performed via any rote practice, nor do I believe it is done in remembrance of Jesus dying for my sins or that of others, and the meaning that I attach to it I have explained above.

  I really do believe what The Master said about the kingdom of heaven being, "within you," and I believe that if you search for it there with absolute sincerity, you will find it waiting for you as the free gift it has always been. And if and when you do this, you will likely be minded to find one or two others like you truth knowing and spirit accepting - and celebrate your own Passover into a new dispensation of spiritual joy and brotherhood as a faith daughter of the living God.

  And you will need no Jehovahs Witness to tell you when or how to do this, because the spirit is contactable anywhen and everyhow you can think of.

  franois

  P.S. Um, and Ven baby, I don't believe that the water turns into blood, nor the bread into the body of Jesus. Transsubstantiation is just another one of those organized religion thingys.

  Edited by - francois on 13 February 2003 12:11:20
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  acsot

  Francois, you must have been posting same time I was!

  This remembrance is the believers symbolic meeting with Him. When you become spirit-conscious, The Master is actually present, and his spirit fraternizes with the spirit of the Father, which indwells us each one: the kingdom of heaven is within you.

  Now that makes sense. As I'm just exiting the JWs at present, I think I'm more agnostic than anything else, you know - all the suffering, why do Ethiopians have to suffer through another horrendous famine like the one in 84-85, when all I'm worried about here is the price of gas? Just because they were born there and I was born in North America? Survivor's guilt, whatever, it doesn't make sense. But at least your explanation is logical, and really very simple. If only I could believe again!
• 

  Francois

  Ascot - You're actually in a quite admirable position. You've had your experience with organized religions of man. Now you're prime to experience the spirit where the Master said you would find it. And I assure you it's right there.

  When I left the JWs over 25 years ago, I was an agnostic, too. (I didn't have the guts to be an atheist).

  Anyway, you will find the spirit when you're ready. As it has been said, "when the student is ready the teacher appears; when the teacher is ready the student appears."

  I hope you'll let us know when you find the spirit or it finds you - whichever happens first.

  francois
• 

  SixofNine

  If only I could believe again!

  Why? Considering the insanity of virtually all belief, why would you choose it?

  Also, I'm curious as to how Francoise "makes sense"? Taking nothing away from his creativity and obvious way with words, but he obviously is just making shit up. Nothing wrong with that, all religious writings are just made-up-shit. But how specifically does it make any sense?

  In fact, I bet Franciose will agree with me. You're just making this shit up aren't you? I mean, we only know a bit about this "master" fellow thru the bible, which we both agree is full of shit, right? And the "master" part, you've glommed onto that word, but why? How are you so different than Shelby/ AGuest? You write better? You don't resort to writing affectations? (well, ya sorta do, when you get into this master/spirit stuff).

  I suppose this sounds harsh, but just how the hell did you get so clued in, is the natural question. I think the answer is that you aren't. No more so than any Jehovahs Witness telling someone else the nature of god.
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  acsot

  SixOfNine: It makes sense with respect to biblical interpretations of the last supper I've been exposed to/believed. Catholicism and the transubstantiation for one. So yeah, it makes sense. And if he made it all up, it still makes sense. More sense than paying a ransom, having Jesus bodily present in the Eucharist, etc., etc.,