Evolution or Creation??

by dottie 172 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Now to the real world:

    Humans and Chimpanzees have a genome of approximately 3 billion nucleotides of DNA length. If this is at least 95% percent the same (it could be higher) then 2,850,000,000 nucleotides are the same.

    Looking our options as to how these simialarities came about would seem (based on the lenght of DNA and the similarities) to limit us to 2 options.

    1. Humans and Chimpanzees share a common ancestor

    2. Humans and Chimpanzees share a common creator.

    Those who belive option # I. do not have to first produce a visible extant common ancestor living today or a visible extant fossil common ancestor skeleton in order to propose (based on the similarities and lenght of the DNA) that such a common ancestor existed.

    Those who belive in option # 2 likewise should not have to first produce a visible extant common creator living today or visible extant evidence that one lived in the past in order to propose (based on the similarities and length of the DNA) that such a common creator existed.

    Now it may be argued that option # 1 is falsible and option # 2 isn't. However this does not prove that option # 1 is true and that option # 2 didn't actually occurr. Also this does not change the fact that based on the current evidence both models can show their proposals without first proving the existance of either a common ancestor or common creator. Thus the rquirement that evolutionists must first prove the existance of a specific ancestor before appealing to evidence that one existed is a false requirement. Also the requirement that creationists must first prove the existance of a specific creator before appealing to evidence for a common creator is a false requirement.

  • rem
    rem

    Hooberus,

    Looking our options as to how these simialarities came about would seem (based on the lenght of DNA and the similarities) to limit us to 2 options.

    1. Humans and Chimpanzees share a common ancestor

    2. Humans and Chimpanzees share a common creator.

    I would add another possibility: Humans and Chimpanzees share a common creator AND a common ancestor, though that would still not be falsifiable. Actually there are many more that I can think of, including multiple creators.

    Thus the rquirement that evolutionists must first prove the existance of a specific ancestor before appealing to evidence that one existed is a false requirement. Also the requirement that creationists must first prove the existance of a specific creator before appealing to evidence for a common creator is a false requirement.

    No one is keeping anyone from proposing anything. Beyond that, "appealing to evidence" for a non-falsifiable theory is useless. Since the 'evidence' could be interpreted any which way to support the theory, there really is no evidence. Here is an example:

    Evidence: Humans and Chimpanzees have very similar DNA

    Creationist answer: Common creator

    Evolution answer: Common ancestor

    But, what if the situation was the opposite:

    Evidence: Human and Chimpanzee have very different DNA

    Creation answer: God created how he best saw fit, or maybe one God created Humans and another God created Chimps

    Evolution: Falsified... must come up with a new theory that fits the facts

    See, if a theory can be right no matter what the evidence shows there is something wrong with the theory. Yes, it very well could be true, but we'd never know if it was or not because there would never be a test that could prove it false.

    In the example of the French Toast, it may seem to you that the Christian god is much more likely creator, but why? What if this special French Toast was the most intelligent being in the universe? What if the universe oozed out of the French Toast's essence and intelligence wasn't involved? Any criticism you have of the French Toast theory could be countered by an ad hoc explanation.

    To make it less absurd, how would you rank the likeliness of these two non-falsifiable theories:

    1. One god created life
    2. More than one god created life

    I personally don't see any way to rank one as more likely than the other (other than appealing to the bible, but I assume we agree to disagree on the veracity of that source).

    rem

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    rem earlier you said:

    "Evolutionary theory would predict that vertebrates would have a more similar looking embryology with other vertebrates than with invertebrates. That's exactly what we see (invertebrate embryos look much different)."

    However, what if the embryos of vertebrates and invertebrates did not look different? Whould this then falsify that they came about through evolution? I think then evolutionists would then say something like:

    "Evolutionary theory would predict that since all vertebrates and invertebrates share a common ancestor their embryology would be as similar to each other as the various vertebrates are to each other. That's exactly what we see (invertebrate embryos look the same). This is a remarkable proof of common ancestry"

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    See, if a theory can be right no matter what the evidence shows there is something wrong with the theory. Yes, it very well could be true, but we'd never know if it was or not because there would never be a test that could prove it false.

  • Shemittah
    Shemittah

    Dottie, I don't intend to get into a debate about this subject, just simply give an answer to your original question from my own perspective. I am still convinced that the various lifeforms we see today and those of the past was pre-programmed by an intelligent designer, whether you class that as being 'God' or some person(s) not indigenous to planet earth.

    I spent some years as a computer programmer and know how easy it is to introduce a 'bug' into a program that throws the whole thing off balance, so you can imagine how I view non-intelligence-based evolution as a means for producing the diversity of life. One thing a programmer knows is that the larger the program, the greater risk of bugs, which will give rise to at best a little performance deficit and at worst a huge computer crash. Evolution relies on a self-writing program based on random changes (or not so random changes, if you consider the purpose of Natural Selection) and additions to the code as it runs through time. Since evolution is not intelligence-driven yet it is said to have been responsible for the material world we see around us, I find it extremely difficult to believe . As a result, belief in evolution is as much a matter of faith to me as is a belief in God; it also leads to the unfathomable question, 'How was something produced from nothing?' To me it doesn't matter whether you believe in evolution or creation you still have to enter the realm of conjecture.

    Micro-evolution is observable and therefore tests can be made regarding it. Large-scale changes such as a proto-ape-human changing into ape/man cannot be observed, and therefore cannot be tested, which means it cannot be verified by scientific means. Although m utations do happen in the observable world , t he value of such mutations to survival is debatable. These mutations have, not to my knowledge, produced new organs which give them some kind of advantage in the natural world. Scientists have been able to change the genetic code in some forms of life, but then this introduces an external intelligence into the equation , something that would not occur in a randomly generated universe. Natural selection is supposed to endow an organism with characteristics which will give it a fighting chance to overcome threats to its existence. If the threat is in the present then we must reasonably assume that any changes must take place in the present since the threat is immediate. If the threat lies in the future then that would mean that Natural selection must possess either foreknowledge or intelligence that gives it a good chance to predict the future. In the first case, if the threat were a major flood, then flightless land animals would have to develop body changes that would equip them for aquarian life right there and then , and unless new body changes complimented rather than replaced existing features, there could be a danger of being wiped out before the flood came (e.g. gills replacing lungs)! In the second case, where is the intelligence that predicts the future? Where does intelligence fit into the e volution ary scheme of things? Even if a lifeform had the ability to sense danger present or future, could it facilitate change by simply thinking about it? Taking the university route in order to understand the origins of life, means that the student has to play by the rules set by evolutionists. One thing worth considering is that if there is "overwhelming evidence" (such expressions are often thrown into texts to lend authority) for evolution, then why would anyone need a degree to see it. From my perspective it would be a waste of time and I would find it unbearable to be in an environment where independant thinking was not an option. There may well be places that give students scope to challenge the theory of evolution without ridicule, I don't know. I do know that evolutionists have a stranglehold on public education (including TV and other media outlets) as well as scientific journals.

    Such a formidible presence and strength almost guarantees that only the evolutionists will be heard while the voices of those who believe in life via intelligent design are drowned out - when was the last time you saw a TV program dealing with the origins of life from a creation-by-design point of view? You cannot escape having the "gospel" preached to you by the evolutionists. Try to find a book on biology or an animal encyclopaedia that doesn't advertise for them in some way. The evolutionists hold all or most of the key positions that matter, and have enormous control over what constitutes evidence and in what manner this is presented to the public (sort of reminds me of George Orwell's 1984). In that situation you have to be true to yourself, go with your instincts and listen to those few who have had access to some of this "evidence" and beg to differ ("Buried Alive" by Jack Cuozzo is a good example of such a situation). Thankfully, the Internet has helped to provide some resistence to the constant barrage from the "Masters of the Universe", with some courageous people willing to stick their necks out in an effort to make sure people hear an alternative view of their origins. My belief was and still remains that the cosmos is intelligence-driven. I know that this is not the popular belief but then I never was worried about being different. Its very important to me that people can make their own informed opinion on this subject , rather than just following the herd who tend to take the evolutionists words as sacred writ. Many of these evolutionist have, after all, walked down the holy halls of academe and been blessed with the white coat and title that befits their role as priests serving in the interests of the sacred cow of science. :0)

    There are some beliefs that are harmless in themselves and it doesn't matter in the end who is right. However, the theory of evolution can teach people to view themselves as simply sophisticated animals with no need of a spiritual dimension to their lives. The danger of course is that such a view of life can make it easier to justify selfi shness , to the detriment of humankind - for instance, why fight promiscuity if its a natural part of our makeup as indicated by our closest "relatives" the chimpanzees? If we promote views that hold particular popular world support, but they have the capacity to turn people into "animals", then I believe we must be prepared to share responsibility for any resultant brutish behaviour. Kind regards,

    Alex.

  • rem
    rem

    Hooberus,

    However, what if the embryos of vertebrates and invertebrates did not look different? Whould this then falsify that they came about through evolution?

    First of all, evolution is falsifiable by many lines of evidence, including the fossil record and DNA. It only takes one line of evidence that can falsify a theory to make it falsifiable.

    With the theory of evolution a different set of comparitive embryology data (such as you described) could not be immediately rationalized away with an ad hoc explanation. Serious research would have to be done to see why it is the way it is and how that interelates with other evidence. That observation could even force us to reinterpret other evidence, including fossil and DNA evidence. I don't think the ad hoc explanation of "common ancestry" would be adequate because there is also the parameter of how closely related species are within the theory because of the necessity of a heirarchical structure. Such an observation would open up many more questions and would contradict other evidence thus paving the way of falsifying the current theory and developing a new theory that takes into account the known facts. This might include a theory that does not include a heirarchical structure. Of course, such a theory would not have much in common with the current theory.

    rem

  • rem
    rem

    Alex,

    I spent some years as a computer programmer and know how easy it is to introduce a 'bug' into a program that throws the whole thing off balance, so you can imagine how I view non-intelligence-based evolution as a means for producing the diversity of life. One thing a programmer knows is that the larger the program, the greater risk of bugs, which will give rise to at best a little performance deficit and at worst a huge computer crash. Evolution relies on a self-writing program based on random changes (or not so random changes, if you consider the purpose of Natural Selection) and additions to the code as it runs through time. Since evolution is not intelligence-driven yet it is said to have been responsible for the material world we see around us, I find it extremely difficult to believe .

    You seem to have several basic misconceptions about how evolution through natural selection works. Basically what this boils down to is an argument from ignorance.

    One thing that I think you'd be interested in knowing is that evolutionary principles have been used in computer programming and produce some amazing results:

    http://xxx.infidels.org/~meta/getalife/epgp.html

    After the unexpected success of Tierra, computer scientists began to explore whether similar techniques could be used to evolve real, useful code. Today, the state of the art is Genetic Programming or Evolutionary Programming, invented (and patented) in 1992 by John R. Koza of Stanford University.

    Like Tierra, the "DNA" of Genetic Programming is a set of equations and operations, not just parameters; but instead of reaping the code that crashes and rewarding the code that copies itself in the smallest space, Evolutionary Programming measures how well each program does at solving a particular problem. The programs that do the worst are eliminated, and new strains of program code are bred by recombination, either with or without mutation.

    The solutions produced by evolutionary programming resemble the solutions we find in the real world in several ways. To start with, they are very hard (or even impossible) to understand: the code makes no sense whatsoever to a human mind. It may use functions that seemingly have no logical relevance to the problem, like using trigonometry to solve a binary arithmetic problem. Typically evolved programs will consist of one long line of code, with literally hundreds of nested expressions.

    Another characteristic of evolved solutions is that they're messy. They may include obviously unnecessary operations in one part of the code, yet be much more compact than any human programmer can achieve elsewhere. Think of the human eye: it has a far greater sensitivity than the best camera man can build, yet the retina is wired in backwards. The nerve cell wiring is on the inside of the eye, in the way of the light path; the brain processes the gaps out of the sensory data later on. If cameras were built like that, there would be wires going across the film, and you'd paint out the gaps on the prints when you got them back. Intelligent design? Hardly. The very idea is crazy. Yet to the blind process of evolution, it's perfectly adequate.

    A third thing evolutionary solutions have in common is that they're unpredictable. Because we don't really understand how the evolved code works, we also don't know what conditions might make it stop working. A piece of evolved code that computed the best way to drive between two cities in the USA might behave bizarrely if asked about a city a mile across the border in Canada. Yet at the same time, evolved code is often much more robust than programmed code, so long as it has been tested against a wide enough range of sample problems. Because the code is evolved rather than designed, it doesn't have built into it all the assumptions a human programmer would make--and the Y2K problem is a good example of the value of not making obvious assumptions.

    Robustness is good, but the single biggest advantage of Evolutionary Programming is the final thing it has in common with biological evolution: it can solve problems that humans are unable to solve, or come up with solutions better than any human solution. In the biological world, animals can climb stairs, avoid obstacles, catch prey, and do many other things that humans have failed to get a robot to do well. In the a-life world, there are evolved programs like the 22s in Tierra. Lockheed Martin have evolved code that works out how to maneuver spacecraft from one orientation to another. It achieves the goal within 2% of the theoretical minimum time -- which is around 10% faster than any human-written code can manage. Imitating nature even more closely may lead to further advances in genetic programming.

    rem
  • Shemittah
    Shemittah

    Rem, thanks for the reply. I think the very fact that evolutionists are using computer programs to simulate evolution speaks for itself. Anyway, I said I don't want to get into debates about this, I been this route loads of times, and it just gets tiresome. I've said what I wanted to say, directed really to the creator of this thread in answer to her question on a personal note. Don't get me wrong, I actually respect the guts of people like Darwin who was convinced of his beliefs and fought against seeming overwhelming odds. It seems we've come full circle.

    Kind regards,

    Alex.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    I think the very fact that evolutionists are using computer programs to simulate evolution speaks for itself.

    Just curious, what exactly do you think it says?

  • Shemittah
    Shemittah

    Hi there SixOfNine!

    Well, in order to simulate evolution, the evolutionists have employed intelligent design, via the human mind which has created structured logic in the form of a computer program. This intelligent design will enable a theory to be acted out according the parameters of the code.

    Kind regards,

    Alex.

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