God//Jesus and Quantum Uncertainty

by SYN 57 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  funkyderek

  We seem to be writing the same things over and over, with slightly different wording for each instance. Think it's time we agreed to disagree?

  OK, I agree! I still can't get my head around your position. To me, something that appears in every testable way not to exist, is effectively non-existent. I can't understand why someone would just wilfully choose to believe in one of many equally valid untestable scenarios. But I respect your right to do so.

  Some info on the IPU:
  http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bit/6458/pinkunicorns.htmlhttp://www.palmyra.demon.co.uk/humour/ipu.htm
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  Gerard

  SYN,

  err...you quantum-freaked me! Beam me up!
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  siegswife

  If something cannot be measured, then it effectively does not exist. This is because something that cannot be measured cannot influence or affect us. Therefore the question of its existence becomes moot.

  The Universe cannot be measured. Does that mean it doesn't exist or affect us in any way?

  Back to the question, the cat is dead from lack of oxygen.
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  SYN

  Siegswife: For the purposes of this experiment, the cat is effectively immortal, i.e. it cannot be killed by anything except the cyanide.
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  expatbrit

  The cat may or may not be dead. What is certain is that the person who put the cat into the box [i]is[/i] going to be dead very soon. As soon as he opens the box, in fact.

  Expatbrit
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  funkyderek

  The Universe cannot be measured. Does that mean it doesn't exist or affect us in any way?

  Of course the universe can be measured. Not accurately, perhaps but its size, age and mass can be estimated. And the effects of any part of the universe known to exist can be measured. Parts of the universe not known to exist can be tested for. It's the fact that it exists and affects us that makes it measurable.
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  siegswife

  Syn, In all seriousness, the cat thing has me a bit confused. I can't quite grasp the idea that the cat is both alive and dead until it is observed. Does that mean that the state of uncertainty somehow affects the reality of a situation? Does it mean that a persons perception or belief is as "real" as physical reality until the physical reality either proves or disproves the belief?

  Taking that concept and applying it to belief in God is understandable. If I'm not mistaken, according to the cat experiment, belief in God could be considered an aspect of quantum theory. The only difference is that observing, or measuring the reality of God would be akin to observing or measuring the effect of something intangible in a way. Like the effect of words or thoughts. While the physical manifestation of talking or thinging could be measured with instruments designed to indicate brain activity or sound waves, the total effect of what is said or thought cannot be measured in that way.

  What if I thought I saw a bomb in a crowded subway and whispered to another commuter the word "bomb" which resulted in panic and maybe even death. There may or may not actually be a bomb, but it exists until it's proven that it doesn't. Even after it's proven to be something else, the effect of my belief and word still had similar consequences that an actual bomb could have produced. What then, is the "reality" of the situation? My belief had an actual effect apart from the observable reality that there is no bomb.

  I'm not really sure if I expressed myself in an understandable way, but this is definitely an interesting topic.
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  D wiltshire

  Funky,

  Of course the universe can be measured. Not accurately, perhaps but its size, age and mass can be estimated. And the effects of any part of the universe known to exist can be measured. Parts of the universe not known to exist can be tested for. It's the fact that it exists and affects us that makes it measurable.

  I think that Max Planck said that we can never fully understand the universe is because we are part of it. Quantum physics has uncertainty built into it because we are limited to our ability know.

  As for man understanding and measuring the universe these are just mathematical estimations that can and will be adjusted. To accurately know and measure the universe or even little parts of it is an impossiblity. Clasical physics used to think that they would soon have all the answers, but then Einstien came on the seen with "relativity" and changed forever our view of the world. Absolute knowledge of the universe or measurement is an impossiblity. Even Hawkings hope for "theory of everything" is a misnomer, that is merely mathimatical with no way of testing, because we are part of the universe and can never duplicate by means of experiment, or test to prove a theory of everything when one is finally made. We can only measure relatively never accurately, we can only estimate.

  If we could some how climb out of the physical universe then perhaps we could measure it.