Answering JW Conversation Stoppers

by Vanderhoven7 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    JWs often try to justify their religion as being the only true religion. Questions like

    Which other organization is doing this or that? Here is one from a JW. You may have others.

    "So consider the following verse, and then ask yourself, “In view of that verse, what would I do if I was in charge and wanted to meet the criteria required in that verse”?

    1 Corinthians 1:10 from the “NIV” version of the Bible:

    “I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.”

    Hmmm.

    1. All agree with one another in what you say
    2. No divisions among you
    3. Perfectly united in mind and thought

    So what do you do?

    We’re happy to be led by some wonderfully trustworthy, logical, reasonable, and studious men, who themselves follow closely in the steps of Jesus. Not perfect by any means, but diligent hard workers who do their level best to adhere to the Bible. And if we come to the conclusion that our understanding could use some “updating”, we are not hog-tied by creeds or traditions. Like scientists who are happy to adjust their views when new evidence comes to light, so do we. Meanwhile, we all adhere to the best understanding that is available now so that we can all agree with one another. Why? Because of the verse quote above.

    Now, doesn’t that make good sense?


    How would you answer?

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Graeme Hammond responded as follows:

    1 Corinthians 1:10 does not exist in a vacuum; it has context. Paul gave his exhortation to be united in the same line of thought for the specific, explicit reason that Christians of his day were saying they “belonged” to the person who baptised them instead of belonging to Christ. Your use of that text is argumentum ad absurdum, creating a universal application to what is a simple instruction. By that same reasoning the Governing Body or bodies of elders would never dare vote on anything for fear of displaying a difference of opinion.

  • Beth Sarim
    Beth Sarim

    "JWs often try to justify their religion as being the only true religion. Questions like

    Which other organization is doing this or that? Here is one from a JW. You may have others. "

    That's one of the ''thought'' stopping techniques in the B. I. T. E. model. Thought - stopping techniques. We are right, everyone else is wrong and us vs. them.

    One tool of the Borg's arsenal to shut-down people's thinking and questioning abilities. It disarms someone's ability to question and/or give a rebuttal to the Witness.

  • jhine
    jhine

    Beth am not familiar with B.I.T.E . What is this technique?

    Jan

  • StephaneLaliberte
    StephaneLaliberte

    When I got married, I seriously considered becoming a ministerial servant on the path to being an elder. It would've been easy considering I had a good reputation, I was fairly popular and was able to deliver talks. There was one thing however: I didn't believe everything we thought. At that stage, I rationalized my faith as:

    While I don't believe everything we preach, I still believe that as a group, in actions, we're the closest to the true religion.

    Still, I found it difficult to publicly teach things I didn't personally believed. I remember that I was often selective with the topics I was covering during the theocratic school, and I knew that if I reached out for more responsibilities, I would not have that luxury of choosing. So, I talked about this with a few Elders and they basically had the same logic:

    "When people go to the hall, it is not to listen to you. Most of the time, they don't even know who will deliver what talk. They go to the meetings to hear what the society teaches; you are simply the messenger. So, it doesn’t matter what you personally believe; preach what the people expect from you, preach what the society asks. Anyhow, if you wait long enough, chances are that the society’s beliefs will change your way.”

    While I agreed with what they were saying, my motivation wasn’t there. How could I be passionate about possibly preaching things I didn’t believe? I was passionate about showing love and care to one another, caring about the environment, being faithful, etc. I could have made thousands of hours on those topics. But explaining the overlapping generation and be convincing when preaching it? How could I be passionate about that? So, as the years went on, I found excuses not to take on new responsibilities all the while blaming myself for being too proud; not humble enough to accept the role of a WT pawn.

    Eventually, almost a decade later, my kids started hearing things at the hall that I didn’t believe. It was at that moment that I realized that I was supposed to teach them these things. If I didn’t, they would eventually realize that I had some “significant” disagreement with the WT and could possibly out me as an apostate! I was growing anxious about the situation and started to look for alternative views. And so, I read Ray Franz’s books in the morning, when riding the train to work. Honestly, I thought that Ray’s books would re-affirm what I already believed; that so and so teachings didn’t make sense. Surprisingly, he focused on Christian love, the very thing that kept me in the JWs. He made me realize that their greatest sin was to lack in that area while trying to hold an organization together. The priority was no longer in the Christian love that should live in each of its members, but the existence and survival of the organization! As a result of that, any disagreement with even the smallest teachings could result in disfellowshipping and ostracism. This is the furthest from Christian love considering that it is impossible to be united in all teachings! JWs have changed their teachings several times through the years. This shows that the Governing Body holds meeting where some of their members express disbelief in current teachings, convinces the other members, resulting in change in theology for the religion. And the question becomes: Why would they be above any of their brothers who would also express similar disagreement? What is more anti-Christian like? Expressing disbelief in a teaching that could very well change or to disfellowship and ostracise the person expressing such doubts; possibly taking away all his friends, family, lively hood, housing and even their own spouse?

    When I think of Jesus, I think of his hatred for the pharisees and their mentality that is kept alive by the JWs who are intolerant when it comes to personal Christian conscience and beliefs. Jesus thought personal responsibility for your faith and love and tolerance for others.

  • StephaneLaliberte
    StephaneLaliberte
    1 Corinthians 1:10 does not exist in a vacuum; it has context.

    You're right, there is context… consider Paul’s teachings regarding eating things sacrificed to idols, which was common to find in the food markets at the time. He explains that essentially, since other gods didn't exist at all, there was nothing wrong in doing that (1 Corinthians 8:1-6). BUT, for fear of destroying the faith of someone else, you shouldn’t do it (Rom 14:14-23). Now, he didn’t state what the consequence of doing it would be, but the words used in Romains were very clear:

    “All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble”.

    Reality is that the Society is aligned with Paul on that. The problem is Paul wasn’t aligned with Jesus! Otherwise, Jesus wouldn’t have done anything to stumbled the conscience of so many jews at the time such as violating the Sabbath (Mark 2:23-28, 3:1-6; John 5:1-18). Besides, if rules were so important to Jesus, he would have written several letters and books elaborating on these. But he didn’t. Instead, he walked around, preaching forgiveness and freedom of the heavy burden of the mosaic law as imposed by the pharisees. Paul on the other hand, who was previously a pharisee, fell right back into what Jesus was trying to free the people from: Caring so much about the conscience of others that you create laws that shouldn't be laws at all. And so, Paul went on and wrote more letters (books) in the bible than anyone else, putting in place rules that, were in fact, not based on his belief, but based on the fear of displeasing others.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    1. All agree with one another in what you say
    2. No divisions among you
    3. Perfectly united in mind and thought

    That defines a cult. The once diverse Christian movements competed for converts. Deep theological disagreements prevented a united political front. An authoritarian hierarchy gradually formed, with Paul apparently instrumental in that development.

  • Beth Sarim
    Beth Sarim

    jhine

    ""Beth am not familiar with B.I.T.E . What is this technique?

    Jan ""

    There is a cult expert in the USA with the name of Steven Hassan. When he was a young man he survived the Moonies cult,,,just a little about him.

    Anyway,,,he is a cult expert who wrote 3 books. A little bit about the B. I. T. E. model. It is an acronym.

    B - behavior conntrol

    I - information control

    T - Thought control

    E - emotional control

    Mr Hassan' studies on cults. He outlines perfectly you control group think by regulating cult members by controlling their behavior, information, thought and emotion by manipulating these 4 techniques by cult indoctrination. By what they watch, read, regulating sleep, regulating friends & through everything they do in life.

  • jhine
    jhine

    Thanks Beth , l had heard of Steve Hassan but not B.I.T.E. .

    Jan

  • Ding
    Ding

    I think we need to come up with short replies to WT thought stoppers.

    One might be, "I don't understand why you call your religion 'the truth' when so many of their key teachings have changed just within our lifetime."

    I'd like to hear others' ideas.

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