Are You In Support Of Starting A War In Iraq ?

by minimus 111 Replies latest jw friends

  • dubla
    dubla

    t h-

    How did they get DNA in the first place, after the fact? Seems to me if they knew they were terrorist before hand, and had gotten close enough to get DNA, why wouldn't they follow these men around?

    obviously you replied without bothering to read the article i gave a link to. apparently they collected samples from the wreckage of the planes and matched it with samples from various places the terrorists had been, such as hotel rooms.

    As far as the WTC, what the heck does that have to do with a war against IRAQ, there has to date, not been any proof of a link with Iraq and Al Queda, 0% proof.

    if you really want to know how the wtc entered this discussion (which i rather doubt you do; im sure youre just trying to make a point here), then read back over the entire thread. our discussion of the wtc had absolutely NOTHING to do with al qaeda and iraq being linked.

    so, on both of your points, i guess a little reading before typing wouldve helped.

    aa

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    I am not in support of starting a war with Iraq. But I am still pro-war when the cause is necessary, and the all the combatants understand the risk, and there is no unnecessary risk to non-combatants. War is actually necessary for the mental well-being of a lot of powerful leaders.(Especially when football season ends.) We can't do much to make it fair for Iraq, but at least on our side we can truthfully discuss the risks to our own boys and girls, and let the cause itself dictate if it can produce enough volunteers. The USA seems to have enough such volunteers without imposing on those who would question the cause. (Enough so that we could definitely fight multiple wars, if manpower was the only question.)

    As far as honesty by the leaders about the cause and the risks, I'm not sure about this one. If we have proof that Iraq is an imminent threat to us then that should be enough. I haven't seen it, but Saddam appears villainous enough to have done a lot of what we say he has. He looks just like the villain with the big moustache who ties the distressed damsel to the railroad tracks in those old silent films.

    My reservations, though, are as follows:

    So far, I only know of one country that has actually used weapons of mass destruction on defenseless men, women and children on a truly grand scale. This was the USA while bombing Japan. The USA was also the worst offender in using WMD, although to a lesser extent, when we carpet bombed and therefore obliterated entire cities in Germany and at least one in France. In this case, our cause was correct, but I don't think it really gave us the right to command the deaths of so many civilians.

    The USA is still my favorite country, I just think we made a big moral mistake. If it weren't so easy for Japan, France and Germany to prove that we had been guilty of this ourselves, we would no doubt have categorized these mistakes as war crimes at Nuremberg.

    Also, our UN-sanctioned, US-UK-enforced biological war against Iraq (by enforcing starvation) has already killed many times more than terrorists' toll in the US in 2001.

    Also I think the term finishing a war with Iraq makes more sense than your question about starting a war. We had half the country of Iraq declared a no-fly zone and have admitted to regularly dropping bombs on Iraq for over a decade.

    Also, we have appeared untrustworthy and hypocritical in our attempts to tie Saddam's regime with terrorism against the USA. He may very well have done this, and he's definitely a threat to do so, but not in the way our administration has tried to connect the pieces. His very war against the Kurds (which we like to call "his own people" even though they are the very people the CIA claims to have worked with to fight Saddam) has made Saddam even more hated by Al-Qaeda, because Saddam was also attempting to destroy Al-Qaeda groups and their protectors and their ilk among the Kurds. Most Muslim fundamentalists are active to rid the world of peole like Saddam and Saudi oil sheiks. How confused the world outside of FOX News must be when they get reports that the CIA is monitoring (rather than crushing) chemical weapons experiments by the Kurds in Northern Iraq. I'm not saying all these reports are true, but the US does nothing to explain our obvious non-response to questioning countries. (Just take a look at international newspapers on the Net, even those who hate Saddam.)

    And why are we such friends with Turkey, never mentioning their mega-genocides, but happy to focus on mini-genocides by any country on our bad side?

    Outside of those concerns...I say, Why not?

    Gamaliel

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    STARTING? a war. ???

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    Gamalie,

    In regards to carpet bombing German cities, I think you have forgotten that Germany had been carpet bombing London for months before this happened. Lets not get into Stalingrad. The Axis+ the Allies both bombed the shit out of civilian areas. The US fire bombed parts of Japan with the resulting fire killing far more people than the bombs themselves. Also, the US was in no-way the first users of WMD. Chemical warfare was used extensivly in WWI and the Japanese used Biological Weapons on the Chinese throughout WWII. We are the only ones to Nuke another country, but only becuase we developed it first. You'd be a fool to think that Germany or Japan wouldnt not have done the same. At lets not forget they started it. The Germans would have had the bomb first but one of their scientist told them that it was impossible and fudged the calculations.

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    Crazy151drinker,

    In regards to carpet bombing German cities, I think you have forgotten that Germany had been carpet bombing London for months before this happened.

    No not at all, Germany was just as guilty of this even if the % of civilian casualties to city population wasn't as bad (but it might have been if London had been smaller) and, like I said, it would have been added to the list of German war crimes if we hadn't done it, too.

    Lets not get into Stalingrad. The Axis+ the Allies both bombed the shit out of civilian areas. The US fire bombed parts of Japan with the resulting fire killing far more people than the bombs themselves.

    Like I said, there is only one nation on earth that has proved itself too dangerous to be trusted with WMD.

    Also, the US was in no-way the first users of WMD. Chemical warfare was used extensivly in WWI and the Japanese used Biological Weapons on the Chinese throughout WWII.

    I don't think the administration's rhetoric about WMD was originally intended to confuse chemical weapons with WMD. By their nature, no one has been able to deploy chemical/biological as "WMD" weapons yet, unless you include intentional, imperialistically instigated infections in indiginous ("Indian") inhabitants from old US history. I think the confusion is from Bush's repetition of the original phrase "gassed his own people with WMD". It originally was meant as a shorthand to get the idea out there that he had both. The military has considered them mutually exclusive.

    We are the only ones to Nuke another country, but only becuase we developed it first.

    Wow! There's a credit to US prudence.

    Gamaliel

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    Gamalie,

    The Japanese effectivly developed bombs to distribute WMD and in fact killed hundreds of thousands of Chinese. If you look at WWI fatalities you can see that Chemical weapons are indeed WMD.

    Like I said, there is only one nation on earth that has proved itself too dangerous to be trusted with WMD.

    Now this is madness. According to this logic we should get rid of all of our Nukes but let Russia and China keep their's becuase we cant be trusted but they can becuase they havnt nuked anyone. I guess you dont take into account the fact that the reason they havnt nuked anyone is fear of getting nuked by us. Horrible logic to say the least.

    The simple fact is that Germany was developing Nukes and if they had they would have nuked London, Moscow, and eventually the US. Here is a leader who systimaticly slaughter 6 Million jews but you would trust him with a Nuke becuase it he hadnt used one yet. Thats smart.

    Hello, we used a weapon to end a war that had already killed over 50 Million people and this upsets you?? Should WWII have lasted a little bit longer?? You stick up for a country that killed Millions of Chinese and started the war in the first place!!! Sorry, but in this case, the Ends justified the Means.

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    Crazy151drinker,

    The Japanese effectivly developed bombs to distribute WMD and in fact killed hundreds of thousands of Chinese. If you look at WWI fatalities you can see that Chemical weapons are indeed WMD.

    You might be right, I was just referring to what the US military typically lists in those categories.

    I guess you dont take into account the fact that the reason they havnt nuked anyone is fear of getting nuked by us. Horrible logic to say the least.

    I think it's too bad we didn't believe your logic in 1945.

    but you would trust him [Hitler] with a Nuke becuase it he hadnt used one yet. Thats smart.

    Actually, it's not smart to assume I would trust him. But when we built the bomb, why didn't we trust in your theory above? Did you think we were actually required to use the bomb on civilian men, women and children to exploit the nuclear terrorism factor? Would this have been a requirement of any other country that built it first, to keep other countries from using it later?

    You stick up for a country that killed Millions of Chinese and started the war in the first place!!!

    Whoah! Let's let this sink in: Because I don't think we should drop a bomb that kills civilian men, women and children, then you equate this with sticking up for the country that we terrorized? According to you, we successfully terrorized the world, and the end justified the means. I think US terrorism is wrong and so is any other country's terrorism. This has nothing to do with supporting Japan. It's about military rather than civilian targets. We in the US say that hitting civilian targets on purpose is terrorism. Is it only terrorism when countries we don't like do it?

    Let's assume the US started a war somewhere, say SE Asia, and one of those countries retaliated by nuking a US city -- targeting civilian men, women and children. Depending on how well the propaganda worked, you may or may not actually support the war. But you still might have a problem with at least the "children" part, no? Maybe if you knew some of them? If it stops the war then the end justifies the means? Extending your "logic" from above, I would also have to suppose that if anyone, including you, spoke out against the nuclear terrorism, this means that they (and you) would trust Hitler with nukes? I won't be surprised if you don't see the logic in that.

    Sorry for the absurdity, but I'm always amazed at what passes for logic.

    Gamaliel.

  • Pleasuredome
    Pleasuredome

    dubla

    what would be interesting is if they found remains of any of the passengers that were on the 2 planes that crashed into the towers.

    as for the rest of the 19 hijackers? its funny how some have managed to survive the crashes and leave the US and take up another life half way around the world, but then these are very sophisticated and intelligent guys, so i presume there's some way they could have done it.

    the FBI list still remains a joke, and the FBI remains a joke.

  • patio34
    patio34

    As many have pointed out: the question is wrong. It presupposes "starting" a war, which is debatable. Am I in favor of stopping a potential Hitler? Yes. Do I feel Bush is being forthright? No.

    But I am definitely not a pacifist. To be so is to ignore the whole of evolution. It also leaves people wide open to be conquered by dictators, etc.

    I can picture a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us (in this case Saddam) attacking that world because they'd never expect it. --Jack Handey

    Pat

  • dubla
    dubla

    pleasure-

    as for the rest of the 19 hijackers? its funny how some have managed to survive the crashes and leave the US and take up another life half way around the world

    some were falsely identified at the very beginning, and the list has since been corrected im sure. false identification is very normal, and doesnt nulify the current list at all whatsoever. as the article pointed out, the dna matches are a positive on at least two of the hijackers, and they were indeed terrorists from the fbi list. you asked me to prove to you that terrorists hijacked those planes, i have, and you simply fall back on your original argument about the false ids. so, i guess on you, the proof is wasted.

    aa

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