3 Gods Equal 1 God?

by 7robert7 38 Replies latest jw friends

  • JAVA

    Hello 7robert7,

    We are but mere humans, and when we cant explain something in a manner that our limited thinking can understand, we become afraid.

    The “We are but mere humans” statement is condescending (to me). I don’t know another species higher in the gene pool than humans. When humans can’t explain things they come up with theories, see which ones fly or crash, and build on past knowledge to continue the learning process. Yes, it’s easy to become afraid when things are not understood; this has created more gods than any single factor I can think of in human history. Perhaps a better mathematical equation on explaining the theology of god is:

    more knowledge = less gods

    I’m not an atheist. I just don’t believe in things that are not proven, but realize there is much to discover and prove. However, suggesting I’m “mere human,” with “limited thinking,” and “afraid,” thus needing some other person’s concept of god to point out the way, works for the Watchtower Society, but not me. I stopped buying into fear-based-human devalueation a long time ago, and discovered I wasn't so limited after all.

    ...counting time at the Coffee Shop

  • 7robert7

    Hello JAVA, and thank you for sharing your beliefs and understanding as you see them.

    To answer your first question on wether I can give you an example of God bringing people together in love peace and harmony in written history, no. But I'll ask you this, what of unwritten history?

    For example, when working the missions field in South Central L.A shortly after the riots, I came upon a man on skid row who had a story similar to yours. Granted, your probably not homeless, nor hooked on crystal meth.:) But that was where the similarities ended between you and him, and became very simular.

    He was part of the Mormon church at one time, and started as many due in their search for the truth to doubt the teachings and ideologies of his church leaders. This brought about shunning by his life long freinds and even immediate family.
    I'm only assuming so please correct me if I'm wrong, that you left an orginized religion of some type, because the rules and regulations placed upon you made having God in your life a burden. For instance some segments of my faith teach that if one doesnt speak in tongues, that one doesnt have the holy spirit, or if one curses and uses foul language the spirit isnt in him. If these teachings were true, then why does the Bible say that a beleiver can grieve the Holy Spirit. Wouldnt the spirit have to be present in the person for that person to grieve him? Yes. And on gifts, scripture says that each recieves or may have a gift that another doesnt have. Anything beyond what is written is of mans own imagination, and not of God. Anyways, on with the story at hand.

    Imagine having the person your married too, explain that she could know longer be with you because you left the church. It left him bitter and terribly angry with God. He couldnt understand how his wife of 15 years could turn her emotions off like a fawcet and go on with her life while he suffered at the hands of the very people he loved and trusted. The need for acceptance among our pears can turn us against the very people we are supposed to love. And love is the key teaching in scripture. Christ stated that if it came down to giving to God, or giving to your family, always chose your family, after all your ministry is your family, not the church.

    Needless to say things quickly started falling apart, he lost his position in one of the more prominent law firms in Washington state, due to his leaning on coke, then crack then finally meth. Notice the slow progression from the high priced drug, when he had money to less and less expensive drugs when the money started to run out.

    This left him totally broke, and soon homeless, not to mention the 3 cars he sold to keep his habit going. He had nothing.

    He went on to explain that religion was nothing more then a racket, which much to his surprise was how Jesus felt about the Pharisees. He realized later that it wasnt his anger at God that caused him to fall apart, it was when he started believing that he, a mere man could solve his own problems. After all, he did just fine before he found the Mormon church, God became a burden, not because of God, but because of mans ideas concerning our creator.

    When we finished talking I offered him the chance to come in off the street and stay at the ministry. Needless to say his response was "Not on your life, there is no way that I'm gonna fall for that crap again." "God is love my a$$." I can live without that kind of love just fine." Needless to say I did what Christ did, I didnt beg him to come. Christ wasnt about control, either you were with him or against, and if by chance you were against him, its your choice, he simply prayed about it later. Christ gave his message, and moved on.

    I did pray that day that God would bring him around, and low and behold a month later guess who got on the bus back to the ministry the next time we came back? Thats right mister "I dont need no steeenkin Jesus."

    Set Free Church lived what they preached, Christ said if you have it give it. Christ didnt say, make sure their going to use what you give for the right reason. That type of attitude would be controling, and he wasnt about controlling people. He knew that eventually they would see the love in giving and get around to using it for the right reason, but again, he left it up to the individual. Christ said to feed the hungry, Set Free did. Christ said to clothe those who didnt have, we did. Christ taught that if a man was homeless, give him a place to rest. We did. The church owned 3 homes that were used for just that purpose. The churches motto was, "If there aint room we'll make room." and "Beans and rice and Jesus Christ."

    If people felt it wasnt for them, cool, dont let the door hit you in the can. But always remember that same door that you walk out of is ALWAYS open, again, no matter how many times you walk away. That is true love. When we held Bible studies know ones opinion about what a certain verse meant to them was looked down upon, because we understood that not all of us are at the same stage in our walk with God. And whose to say that God didnt bring that understanding about at that time for a specific reason. Unless of course it had to do with aliens coming to get us, we had to draw the line somewhere.:)

    My friend got involved at the ministries food co-op, and found that helping others made him feel like nothing else he felt in his life. He finally understood what true love was all about. He once said that even his biggest win in a court case couldnt compare to what he felt when giving to others, and not asking for anything in return. He realized that God wasnt about suffocating, and burden, but freedom and joy. That is, when man allows God to be God, and man accepts the fact that man will never be more then man. I know that sounds condensending to you, but hey thats cool, to each his own. You have the right to feel that way, its called free will. You believe man can solve his own problems through science, philosphy, and theory, but just as with all theory and all things in life, change does happen. Its inevitable. God Bless, and I hope that this was a good enough example of people coming together in the name of God for the purpose of love and peace. Unwritten history is so much more uplifting then written history sometimes. Of course death, hatered, and dying sell more papers, books and magazines then does love.

  • Scorpion


    World History is just a fragment of what has transpired through time that has been recorded. History can also be altered just as the Bible has through time. Concepts of God are just that, concepts. What brings people together, peace, love, etc, when God is involved, is the relationship one has with God and those that share in the relationship. These are personal experiences that are not recorded in history, but are recorded in the heart and mind of the individual.

  • vsecret939

    so can the trinity be described as god having a split personality? or would that be over simplifing it? i've been tring to grasp the idea of the trinity and that is the only thing that i can think of, that, in my limited human understanding, seems to capture the idea of it all. and i'm not saying god is crazy, as a human would be, but the idea seems to imbrace the cocept of one being with multiple aspects to it. what do you think?

    victoria's secret

  • larc


    Your case study of the man that was helped by you shows that you are trying to do good. You might be surprised to learn that Athiests and Agnostics do the same thing.

  • Scorpion


    I look at the Trinity as a formula. God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit or helper that Jesus said the Father would send in his name. John 14:26. I do not see the Trinity as three gods making up a godhead, but see it as three Divine beings working together as one.

    I do not think believing in the Trinity is an essential for having a relationship with God. Those that push the Trinity belief as an essential for salvation are as bad as the WT pushing the idea that you must be one of Jehovah's Witnesses to serve God properly.

  • 7robert7

    Vsecret939, your idea isnt crazy at all. Here is my belief. The Bible makes many statements that are quite amazing, maybe not by todays standards, but when one reflects upon what science had available technologically back then (nothing) compared to now, some of the things mentioned in scripture could only from the creator of all things.
    For instance, Columbus believed that the earth was flat, as do members of the Flat Earth Society today, scripture on the other hand speaks of the earth being a sphere,(round) and suspended from nothing.

    Also science proved scripture correct again when they discovered worm holes or black holes in space, scripture stated that the universe would eventualy wear out and fold in on itself, and that it would resemble a moth eaten garment, science has proven that the universe is in fact deteriorating or falling apart, and that there are holes in it.

    There are many analogies to the Trinity in the physical world.

    An egg consists of 3 equally important parts- the shell, the white, and the yolk- yet all are considered as one thing, an egg.

    Science has proven that time is one, yet it consists of 3 equally important aspects, the past, the present and the future.

    No analogy can adequately comprehend an infinite God. Perhaps the best one, though, is Gods own description of Himself:"God is light" which is found in 1John 1:5.

    Physicists know that light is comprised of three distinct yet indivisbly interrelated properties: wave, material(photons), and quantum.

    Though each property reveals itself in a different way, they are nonetheless each all "light."

    Likewise, light is comprised of electromagnetic waves of different frequencies. And again it falls under the number three.

    At the low end of the spectrum, we have radio waves-which given in the proper transforming device, can be heard.

    In the middle, we have visible waves- which can be seen.

    And finally at the upper end, we have infrared waves- which can be felt as heat. Perhaps God has put the yearning to learn in man so that man could see God in His creation.

    Human birth involves the womb, the egg, and the sperm.

    The human being consists of the physical body, the soul, and the spirit.

    There are many other things in nature that involve three components, and if any of those components were missing it wouldnt exist.

    The following faiths reject the teaching of the Trinity, Hinduism, Buddism, Shintoism, Confucianism and Taosim, Islam, Judaism, Jehovahs Witness, Mormons, Christian Scientists, Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians, Unitarians,and the list goes on and on. Oh and lets not forget the Catholics, yes them to, as they teach that Mary is the coreedeemer with Christ, which takes it from the biblical teaching of 3 united in 1 to 4 with Mary thrown in.

    If God isnt a trinity, then ask a witness why in Genesis 1:1 The Hebrew word for God is Elohiym. This is very significant to the watchfull eye, because the word Elohiym is plural. "iym" at the end is simular to our adding an s, such as in dog is one, dogs is two.

    Notice further that, when God is reffered to at the creation of mankind (Genesis 1:26), the words are, "Let US make man in OUR
    image." Again this refers to the plural nature of a single God, which is made clear by the grammar.

    One needs only take the time to read the scriptures with an open mind, and with the help of the Councilor which is the Holy Spirit.
    Scripture says that those who do not have the holy spirit, do not belong to God and are incapable of understanding the truth due to the fact that they are in the flesh. Most witnesses are taught that they cant be born again, which is why they cant see the truth, they are still in the flesh and not in the spirit. Only the 144,000 can be born again is the Societies teaching, but scripture says that one doesnt belong to God unless they are born again.

    Read 1 Corinthians 2:10 - 14 and see for yourself what scripture teaches, then compare this to the Society.

    As to larcs responses, Christian run, or should I say God run drug rehab centers have 3 times the sucess rate of secular man made programs. This is fact. And the ones in God run programs are 3 times less likely to have a relaps. True athiest do some wonderfull things for their fellow man, like the ACLU keeping prayer out of school, fighting the Ten Commandments in court, fighting state mottos that mention God in it. There are better things to do, like feed the hungry. Is the ACLU pushing its own hidden agandas? That doesnt sound very unselfish to me.

    And last but not least, to Scorpion, I agree with you. To much time is spent on the side issues and not enough on the main one, and that is that Christ died so that we could have life. But for me to discuss the possibilty of the Trinity and to use scripture to back its teaching isnt wrong. If I were to say, Jesus Christ was just a man and nothing more, would you sit back in silence? God Bless, there is so much more that I have to say, but I have this really awesome wife and two great kids that need me to. Your right though, to much time is spent arguing over the lesser things theologically, but the trinity really isnt one of them. Once you realize the importance of the trinity as I due, you'd see the importance. But as I've said before, we are not all at the same stages in our spiritual walks, and thats cool. God is in control. Bye.

  • Scorpion


    I enjoyed your analogies of the Trinity. They make sense. In my last post, I should have mentioned that I have seen and been in many debates and discussions about the Trinity and what usually happens is that both sides, pro and con, end up in a flame war that turns into personal attacks. These wars have been on so called christian forums. This is why I say that pushing the Trinity doctrine as something everyone needs to comprehend and accept, is not essential in order to have a relationship with God.

  • willy_think
    Oh and lets not forget the Catholics, yes them to, as they teach that Mary is the coreedeemer with Christ, which takes it from the biblical teaching of 3 united in 1 to 4 with Mary thrown in.

    robert, i never herd this, so i got my mothers catholic catechism book. i don't know were you got this idea. if a catholic that you know thinks that, well he can think what ever he wants, but it is not the teaching of the "church". is it a teaching of the WTB&TS inc. that the catholics throw in mary?

    jesus being the reedeemer does not make him a part of the trinity. it is jesus being the word that makes hin of the trinity.

    the ideas and opinions expressed in this post do not necessiarly represent those of the WTB&TS inc. or any of it's subsidiary corporations.
  • JAVA


    Humans make up history. History repeats itself.

    Then you said,

    World History is just a fragment of what has transpired through time that has been recorded.

    Which is it? It's difficult discussing a topic when the boundaries keep changing.

    ...counting time at the Coffee Shop

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