David, I believe these "interfaith" meetings were designated as such by the media or those that were advertising. That in itself could be a cause for real stumbling. If the average Witness decided to involve themselves in such a meeting, there could be many problems for the participants....No confusion here!!!
New JW Interfaith Meeting!
by UnDisfellowshipped 38 Replies latest jw friends
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Utopian_Raindrops
David,
I dont know how long you have been a Jehovahs Witness but, minimus is right.
You stated, What the article you cited is referring is a discussion of different religious group and their beliefs regarding peace. Certainly, Jehovah's Witnesses are not shy about discussing their beliefs even in a group setting.
Of course we know JWs are not shy in discussing their beliefs with others even in a group setting. That is not the issue.
The issue here is in an interfaith setting.
In case you did not realize The WTBS in the past has MOCKED other religions for partaking in such an interfaith setting. I remember wondering WHY they thought it was so bad that The Other Religions would gather before The United Nations and discuss World Peace.This was a perfect time for them to Teach World Leaders about the New World! They also,often have MOCKED meetings of other religions gathering together to discuss how to get along better.
How 2 faced to NOW partake in such meetings WITHOUT 1 st apologizing (the WT Nov. 1, 2002) for past erroneous views on this and explaining why such meetings are now OK for True Christians! New Light is great if accompanied by an apology and explanation. Instead they arrogantly forge ahead doing as they please no explanation what so ever and in the past R&F JW have been disfellowshipped for such meetings!
Why should The Sheep pay the price always for The Shepards negligence?
I think you need to sit down and read past bound volumes David so you are filled in as to what kind of meetings are acceptable and what is not for a Jehovahs Witness.
Ty 4 listening,
Agape,
Utopian_Raindrops
Edited by - Utopian_Raindrops on 17 January 2003 0:19:37
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Nathan Natas
David,
The JW "minister" didn't prove anything to anyone because SHE (it was a sister, too) chickened out the morning of the event. I guess maybe her "spiritual armor" was a little to heavy for the little girl to lug around. HA HA! ...and the fellow I spoke to at Bethel seemed more concerned about the issue than you appear to be - he didn't try to explain it away like you did.
FACT: The event was scheduled by a babylonish religious group
FACT: The event was to take place in the sanctuary of a babylonish church
FACT: The event has distinct political overtones
FACT: The JW was listed as a "leader" of Jehovah's Witnesses. No sister leads.
FACT: She stayed home where she belongs
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
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UnDisfellowshipped
Hello and Welcome to the Board David2002!
The Watchtower Society has told JW's that they cannot even have anything to do with The Boy Scouts or The Girl Scouts and the YMCA and YWCA because of their "Religious Connections", so I believe that this Meeting in this News Article would definitely have more "Religious Connections" to Babylon the Great than The Boy Scouts or the YMCA.
Here are Quotes about the YMCA:
The Watchtower January 1st 1979 Issue, Pages 30-31:
Questions from Readers
Is it true that for religious reasons Jehovah's Witnesses may not become members of the YMCA (Young Men's Christian Association)?
Yes, that is so. We have long recognized that the YMCA, though not being a church as such, is definitely aligned with the religious organizations of Christendom in efforts to promote interfaith.
In September 1885 the WatchTower took this position:
"Alas for the Bible-rearing practiced in the Y. M. C. Associations! They are completely under the control of the sectarians, by whom they are supported. Though professedly non-sectarian, professedly controlled by no creed but the Bible, they are more creed-bound than others, since they are bound by all the popular creeds."-P. 6.
Later the underlying religious purpose and interfaith efforts of the YMCA were mentioned in the September 1964 issue of Kingdom Ministry, used by Jehovah's Witnesses in one of their meetings.
Many persons think of the "Y" simply as a social organization that offers various services, such as a swimming pool, facilities for athletic training and a place for clubs to meet. Commendable as some of these provisions may be, it is important to bear in mind that the YMCA was founded with a distinctly religious basis. This was set out at a World Alliance in Paris in 1855. The main part of that official statement (called the Paris Basis) reads:
"The Young Men's Christian Associations seek to unite those young men, who, regarding Jesus Christ as their God and Saviour, according to the Holy Scriptures, desire to be His disciples in their faith and in their life, and to associate their efforts for the extension of His Kingdom amongst young men."
While in some countries churches may not be the YMCA's main source of revenue and while membership is open to persons of all races, nationalities and religions, the fundamental religious objectives of the "Y" cannot be ignored.
But, some may sincerely wonder, is religion or interfaith really an aspect of the YMCA? The answer must be "Yes." Though religious features may be de-emphasized in some branches of the YMCA, all local "Y's" are still expected to comply with the Paris Basis. Further, note comments from the 1975 YMCA publication Christian and Open:
Anza A. Lema, associate of the executive committee of the World Alliance of YMCAs, wrote:
"From its very foundation, it has always looked to the Bible for inspiration and guidance. In many ways its role in the world has tended to complement that of the church without claiming to be a congregation itself. . . .
"But it is more than just an instrument through which Christians put their moral ideals and teachings into practice as they serve society. Most supporters of the YMCA look at it as a place where real fellowship with one another through Jesus Christ is experienced....
"In humbling itself and trying to relate its structures and services more directly to the community, it will be carrying out more effectively its role of service and priesthood for its neighbours.... "
Matthias Dannenmann, general secretary, National Council of YMCAs of Germany, said:
"From its very beginning the YMCA was no doubt meant to have only Christians as members and on the other hand there was the missionary obligation towards those members who could not yet profess Jesus Christ....
"The YMCA is a big offer, but only in as far as Jesus Christ is working in it as Living Saviour. We should do our very best not to drive out this Lord but as we carry him in our name we should personally use every chance of meeting him in the YMCA and of continuously extending this possibility to other people."
Officials of the organization have pointed out that they feel that more attention needs to be given to the religious orientation of the YMCA. Dr. Paul M. Limbert, from 1952-1962 secretary-general of the YMCAs World Alliance in Geneva, Switzerland, wrote:
"It may readily be granted that too few Y.M.C.A.s take full advantage of the opportunity for ecumenical education inherent in these informal contacts among Christians...
"When questions about different forms and beliefs arise among young people and adults, the wise leader takes advantage of the occasion to guide discussion from superficial argument to deeper dialogue....
Leaders in both churches and Y.M.C.A.s need to recognize more clearly the essential nature of a lay ecumenical Christian movement. A Young Men's Christian Association is not a church nor a substitute for a church.... Yet the Faith and Order commission of the British Council of Churches declared in a carefully worded statement in 1959 that the Christian Associations are valuable auxiliaries of the churches, organs of their own missionary activity.-"The Christian Century, June 10, 1964.
And The Christian Century of August 29, 1969, in its article "Happy Birthday, Y.M.C.A.!", stated:
"Realizing that the Christian identity of the Y has often been drowned in swimming pools, its leaders are engaged in recovery of theological awareness and ecumenical vigor.... It may be that the greatest challenge to the Y.M.C.A. is to reclaim its religious heritage for the robust assertion of a new ecumenism among laymen in local communities. The Y.M.C.A. just might be able to do things for the Christian churches which, in their parochial rigidities, they seem unable to do for themselves."
Consequently, there is ample evidence that the YMCA originated with religious objectives and continues to have such to this day.
In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25.) Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theater ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah's Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called "Christian" association would amount to apostasy.
Some individuals have on occasion not become members but have paid a one-time admission fee, viewing this as simply paying for a commercial service available. Even in this regard it is wise to consider whether this course will adversely affect the consciences of others.-1 Cor. 8:11-13.
Jehovah's Witnesses, of course, appreciate a balanced amount of healthful exercise. The Bible says that "bodily training is beneficial for a little." Yet it adds that "godly devotion is beneficial for all things." (1 Tim. 4:8) That does not mean devotion to a triune God. The Bible does not teach that Jesus is "God" in a trinity, as is taught in many of Christendom's churches and as is still included in the "Paris Basis" of the YMCA.-1 Cor. 11:3; John 17:3.
While interfaith efforts and ecumenism are popular today, they are not upheld by the true God, who told his servants: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers.... Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves." (2 Cor. 6:14-17) Also, Jesus plainly said that the Almighty must be worshiped "with spirit and truth." (John 4:24) Most definitely that does not mean joining in a religious cause with persons holding beliefs contrary to what the Scriptures teach. (Rev. 18:4, 5) Thus, it is because of their understanding of what God expects of true worshipers, and of what the purposes and direction of the YMCA are, that Jehovah's Witnesses may not become members of that organization.
Further, it is well to give thought to the fact that in virtually all the years of the YMCAs existence, it has not acted in harmony with the spirit of Isaiah 2:2-4, as can be noted from the following historical facts:
"YMCA services to the armed forces began, in the United States, with the Civil War, and it continued giving service through all wars thereafter."-Encyclopdia Britannica, Micropdia, Vol. X, p. 835, 1976 ed.
"In the Civil War, only ten years after its beginning in Boston, and before there were buildings or secretaries or financial resources, a total of 4,859 delegates were recruited and deployed and over six millions of donated funds used for the temporal and spiritual needs of soldiers.... In World War I, the American Y.M.C.A. assumed an enormous responsibility for service at home and abroad for which a staff of 25,926 was required with expenditures of more than 167 million dollars. In World War II, the Y.M.C.A. became one of the organizations that founded the United Service Organizations [USO], joining as a group of private religious organizations from Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish faiths in an agreement with the Federal government to provide civilian recreational, welfare, and religious services to men in uniform and to war-production workers in communities adjacent to military establishments."-The New Funk & Wagnall's Encyclopedia, Vol. 36, pp. 13,467, 13,468, 1952 ed.
"YMCA activities for members of the armed forces began during the Civil War (1861-1865). These services increased with each later war and reached their fullest development during World War II (1939-1945). The YMCA maintained more than 450 clubs for the Allied armed forces."-The World Book Encyclopedia, Vol. 21, p. 477, 1978 ed.
This kind of service under the name "Christian" was certainly not in fulfillment of Micah 4:3.
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undercover
So if a JW was to join, say, the YMCA for use of the gym without ever getting involved with interfaith, is he still in violation of some WTS policy? Let's say he had been a member for at least 10 years, taking full advantage of the Y's gym. If the elders or anyone else brought it to his attention could he then easily dispense with the matter by saying, " I was unaware of any interfaith movement involved but since this has been brought to my attention, I will disassociate myself from this organization". Of course he hasn't apologized for his action or even shown regret. Would everything be hunky-dory at this point or would there still be some judicial action? I think you know where I'm going with this.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Good questions, undercover!
I think it depends on how many hours the JW has been putting in service, and whether or not the JW has upset the local Elders (or the Governing Body).
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not a captive
SEVEN YEARS LATER.....
It is strange to find this thread after all these years. One of my brothers told me that he had Googled me and this had come up.
Here is my side of the story:
Dick Bennett was a professor of English at the University of Arkansas before he headed the OMNI Center for Peace and Justice. He and my husband were good friends who had campaigned against the Vietnam War on campus long before I married my husband. They went back along way. But as time went on the friendship went dormant. My husband had quit teaching at the Uof A to return fully to his country roots and we had a large family together of seven children. Very backwoods living really kept us out of the social/political groups he had been in before. We were not prosperous.
When I was 39 years old I became one of Jehovah's Witnesses,no one was happy, certainly not my husband. He hates religion generally, the Witnesses especially. His friends were one and all saddened for my him when they heard. Dick Bennett included. But he certainly was pleased to CALL ME when he wanted to have a panel discusssion of various churches' "peace traditions" as he called it.
I asked him what the format was. Was there going to be a prayer, who was moderating? There seemed nothing to indicate it was actually wrong to respond to his request. So I told him I would be happy to tell them how Jehovah's Witnesses had dealt with war. The U. S. at that time was going into Iraq.
At this time in my life my husband was living 8 miles away. Our plumbing was broke in the trailer and there were levels of distress in our household that mounted when Dick Bennett called a few weeks later and told me that he had received emails that were a disturbing to him. He read some to me which I now recognize to be from individuals on this board.
I was dumbfounded. I didn't get newspapers and had no idea that Dick had posted the panel dicussion in the newspaper, that it was billed as an "interfaith" meeting and that I was billed as a "leader" of Jehovah's Witnesses!
I lived in an old worn out trailer, with an outhouse, heated with wood in a smokey stove and just barely was holding my life together that winter. A leader of the Witnesses!
Well, I knew this was a problem. So I called Herb White, a respected elder from another congregation. Bro. White was alevel-headed elder and one of the Anointed. I explained what the invitation had been and asked him if he would represent the Witnesses since there were clearly some people being "stumbled" as the thing unfolded.
He declined and offered reasons that he felt it inappropriate to engage on the topic. He was not bombastic. He did not make me feel like an ass for accepting Dick's invitation to give a witness for my "church". But I remember him telling me clearly that "our brothers' had suffered a great deal in the past to avoid just such contamination with other's political agendas. And he carefully built the case that Dick's real intention was to further a political agenda. He didn't do a "slap down" on me. But it was clear that there was absolutely no good that I could serve on that panel.
Dick Bennett was not sure he should have asked me, I don't know what he thought because I guess he did have doubt that I should answer any questions. He didn't understand that certain phrases used in connection with the discussion made it impossible for me to participate. Certainly he didn't like having a panel member's credentials suddenly called into question. I was also wondering what all this meant.He asked if JW women were ministers. I told him we were but that this forum was a little unusual. But considering the spin that the newspaper had put on it I can see why there was a reaction. It was pretty miserable.
All the way around, the comments that I received were negative and disturbing. I learned via the email responses that Dick received that many saw my participation as irregular and out of line. Ther seemed no good to be served by my presence on the panel. Whether I did it by phone as Dick says or not, I did decline.
The panel discussion was held without me. I made sure to find a newspaper to see how it went. There was no"interfaith"worship if that was the problem, or any attempt to reconcile beliefs. It sounded pretty boring.
Ironically, about three years later Bro. White and his wife came to an OMNI sponsored presentation at our local library that featured an older Witness woman from the Farmington, Ar. congo who was one of the subjects in a paper presented on "persecutions for conscience in Arkansas" or something to that effect. I am sure there were different considerations in her case. But I saw that she was simply enjoying herself. Other Witnesses were there and had cookies and punch afterward. Bro. white didn't stay for any. And he didn't talk to me.
The rigid control and the sense of personal guilt and incompetence built up over time. Everywhere I turned there was implied blame for not doing enough and then doing too much.Not having your kids turn into Witnesses. And everyone who wasn't a JW just wondered why everything you did you had to worry about how it would or wouldn't "stumble" others. We were trained to think of it as theocratic obedience. It all just wore me out.
Maeve Courteau
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Nathan Natas
Welcome to JWN, Maeve!
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humbled
Here is a history of a behind-scenes activities of JWN working over a JW who stepped out of line with WTS policy. That JW was me. Later, when I was df'd, I came to this site and discovered that members here were active in the correspondence that made me face the consequences of being in a high control cult.
I am bumping this thread because the slap-down of JWs who were editing Wikipedia reminded me of my own slap-down 10 years ago---and my later (7 years!) discovery that JWN had jumped in and stirred the pot on the matter.
It is painful to look back and see how hard I struggled to maintain sanity in the cult. You are buffeted all about for trying to do what only seems simple and true. What a storm my ignorance and innocence got me into!
I still see Dick Bennett who opened that discussion on Peace Traditions of the area churches. He knows now I am free of the soul-crushing pressure of the Organization.
Maeve Courteau