God hates wickedness.....but MUST allow it.

by gumby 60 Replies latest jw friends

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Dearest REM please note that the caps are not meant to offend; they are only for emphasis... and for allowing me to type faster, without having the scroll up and click on stuff... and may you have peace

    And may I say that you are in error when you say:

    Shelby has no problem placing blame on humans that did not do anything to help (even though many of them did not even have the power to do anything),

    I ask you: name ONE person I referred to that didnt have the POWER to do anything! The mom, the crackhead, the molester, and the State of New Jersey. Those are who I named. Which one of them didnt have any power?!

    but she then exempts God from the same blame even though he was in the exact same position.

    I exempt Him because He is NOT TO BLAME anymore than you or I. Truthfully.

    No one is saying that humans who can do something but don't should not be blamed, as Shelby would like to think we are saying.

    No, I dont THINK youre saying that I am just going by what is POSTED here

    The issue is that the blame should apply to everybody who could have done something, and this includes God (if he exists).

    Tell me, then because I have stated what the others could have done WHAT could God have done? Tell me. Please. I dont care where you start, truly but I want you to TELL me what He could have done. Once and for all, you or someone tell me what He COULD have done. Please.

    Of course, I don't really blame any god because there is no evidence of any gods existing. But Shelby does believe in an all-powerful god.

    All-powerful hmmmm. Yes, I guess you could say that. However, all-powerful does not necessarily translate to all-acting/all-interferring does it? Nor REQUIRE such does it?

    Thus she is guilty of special pleading.

    Ummmm okay, if you say so, although I am not quite sure what you mean by that, whether I am guilty of special pleading or whether I am guilty of special pleading.

    You can't beat logic, Shelby:

    Indeed. However, there are FACTS that PROVE what you believe to be law to be TRUTH is not. There are FACTS that prove YOUR perception of who SHOULD be considered guilty is wrong:

    1. Anyone who has the power to stop a crime of violence or torture in progress but don't are just as guilty as the criminal who commits the crime.

    Hmmm I find that statement QUITE peculiar, because IN FACT we, earthling man have pleaded... begged... that that NOT be true and in fact have PROVEN that it is not, although God did try to put that one into place. MAN then who has REJECTED Gods laws has CHOSEN to live by his OWN laws and God has left man TO that choice. Tell me, do you REALLY want to go there? Well, then, okay I give you the justice served by MAN on the Berkeley student who stood by and virtually WATCHED as his friend raped and murdered a 7-year-old black girl in the bathroom of a Las Vegas casino.

    Tell me, REM for there was a march on Berkeley campus over it where YOU there? Was YOUR outcry there YOUR baseball bat? If not, WHY not? And please don't say you didn't know about it, 'cause it was on ALL of the news and in ALL of the papers... and you have the POWER to watch the news and read the paper, yes?

    1. God is all-powerful, meaning he has the power to stop violent crime in progress, but instead he only observes

    Power and choice are two totally different things a FACT that earthling man PROVES all the time. Do you have the POWER to stop George Bush from waging war against innocent men, women and children in Iraq because he wants ONE MAN to be removed? And if so, what have you CHOSEN to do about it?

    1. Therefore God is just as guilty as the criminal who commits the crime

    We are guilty IF such war ensues; YOU are as guilty for the murder of such people as George BushWhy? Well, you WILL know about the war, even before it starts, yes? And if you live in this country, you are guilty because he is, after all, YOUR president, isnt he? YOU put him into office YOU gave him his power therefore YOU pretty much put the red button in his fingers... didn't you? And if you DIDNT put him power you knew he was going to be in power... and you didnt STOP it. I mean, that IS your argument, isn't it, that if you KNOW something is going to happen that will result in the loss of life... and you didn't stop it... you are guilty. Yes?

    In addition, based on your argument, we are all guilty because that the "friend" of the little black girl's murderer is a free man... and "we've"... done absolutely NOTHING about it.

    I bid you peace, REM, truly.

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Ah yes, the old freeway illustration. Can't play on god's freeway, cus you'll get killed. Who/what does the killing of tresspassers? You say it is not god, but 'death'. Perhaps osama could have tried that defense for the world trade centre crashes. 'It wasn't me your honor, death killed those people. You see, the fbi and cia were not vigilant enough, and so naturally they let death in.'

    Satan, in his evilness WANTED Adam and Eve to know bad. Why? The same reason he wanted Job to know it and he wanted Christ to know it...

    Doesn't genesis say that god and christ already knew good an bad?

    feeding HIS master, Death

    Death commands satan? Who is this entity death? Do you invent new players as you go along?

    Adam was an idiot. Why?

    Because he was just a kid. What do you expect from kids? I guess they deserve to die when they are idiots.

    Therefore, i maintain that god is the author of wickedness.

    Well, of course, you would. I mean, that is your purpose after all, isn't it, to maintain such?

    Nah, i'm just after truth and freedom, for myself and others. The bible says god creates evil.

    Isaiah 45: 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    It says god tried to kill moses for his son's lack of circumcision.

    Ex4:24 At a lodging place on the way, the LORD met {Moses} [2] and was about to kill him. 25 But Zipporah took a flint knife, cut off her son's foreskin and touched {Moses'} feet with it. [3] "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me," she said. 26 So the LORD let him alone. (At that time she said "bridegroom of blood," referring to circumcision.)

    Joshua tells israel god would bring evil on them under certain conditions.

    Lev26: 14 " 'But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. 17 I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.
    18 " 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. 19 I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. 20 Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of the land yield their fruit.
    21 " 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.
    23 " 'If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24 I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. 25 And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands. 26 When I cut off your supply of bread, ten women will be able to bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out the bread by weight. You will eat, but you will not be satisfied.
    27 " 'If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31 I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings. 32 I will lay waste the land, so that your enemies who live there will be appalled. 33 I will scatter you among the nations and will draw out my sword and pursue you. Your land will be laid waste, and your cities will lie in ruins. 34 Then the land will enjoy its sabbath years all the time that it lies desolate and you are in the country of your enemies; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 All the time that it lies desolate, the land will have the rest it did not have during the sabbaths you lived in it.
    36 " 'As for those of you who are left, I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight. They will run as though fleeing from the sword, and they will fall, even though no one is pursuing them. 37 They will stumble over one another as though fleeing from the sword, even though no one is pursuing them. So you will not be able to stand before your enemies. 38 You will perish among the nations; the land of your enemies will devour you. 39 Those of you who are left will waste away in the lands of their enemies because of their sins; also because of their fathers' sins they will waste away.

    The bible clearly shows that god does the evil, as a reaction to the thoughts or actions of people, especially his worshippers.

    You said:

    if you will go back and read the account, you will see that the change took place IMMEDIATELY after they ate. God wasnt even there at the time.

    They felt guilt and fear of god. That's nartural for children when they disobey an authority figure. But it doesn't kill them.

    Gen3: 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

    God did it. See???? I doubt it. Your concept of god is your idol.

    SS

  • gumby
    gumby

    Hey Shelby and SS,

    Interesting watching this.

    Shelby, Thanks for your hard work in what you have written......although it's hard to swallow.This scripture was cited:' If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children

    The problem here is ...God is going to punish the children for the parents error? Is this right? Elsewhere in the bible it says "each one" will answer for their OWN sins. It says the sons and daughters will NOT be punished for the errors of the parents. Why is this inconsistant?

    What doesn't make sense to me is your comparison of us....to God. You say...."why don't WE do something about problems we know about". The point is......are we the judge.....or God. Do WE have the power he does to stop things? He can stop things with no resistance from anyone........can we? All these oppresed ones are HIS kids......not ours. He is the daddy, the parent, he made us,.......HE is the one to stop this....not us.

    Aso....you said to SS or Rem(don't recall ) Why don't they do something? This would be going against God. God put the law as our ministers correct. They are the superior authorities.....correct. How can you encourage ones to take the law into their OWN hands and disobey ceaser?

    Gumby

    Edited by - Gumby on 13 January 2003 8:34:31

  • Shakita
    Shakita

    AGuest:

    Thank you for your thoughtful post. I didn't expect a sentence by sentence critique, but hey, what ever floats your boat!

    I will repeat that I respect your opinions, but I cannot agree with them. To argue the point any further, would be like banging my head against a wall.

    I guess time will tell whether God is going to own up on his promises to his children, or not. But, since time is not a problem for God, I guess he can wait as long as he wishes.

    Mrs. Shakita

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Here's the dilema for me.

    God is makes appearances/sign and portents for almost 3000 yrs of man's early exsistance. Angels with flaming swords, sun going dark, mega flood, knock's down huge battelments/walls, protects Daniel from the searing heat of the furnace fire and mouths of lions, arranges affairs of one tiny family in the deserts of Sinai, parts water's so thousands can walk thru, makes his presense known by writing on some stone tablets, speaks thru an ass, inspires men to write all sorts of gibberish, impregnates a virgin, raises the dead, cures a few sick people, then as some sort of final goodbye to man's affairs, allows his own son to be slaughtered.

    Then what does this most active god do for the next 2000 years? ABSOLUTLY NOTHING.......until some little white bearded habadasher in the good ole 'USA mother of all that's good for the world', decides to interpret what god has been and will do in the future.

    What a grand legacy the great God Almighty has left for his children. Not.

    You can spout all you want about 'earthling man' geez what a stupid expression, where else other than earth can you find man?

    It is all a play on words my friends. we as 'earthling man' are gullible so in need of comfort, we will fall over ourselves if anyone just uses a few choice phrases.

    We lap it up, we give our lives, our will over to some seer who can throw a few emotional words together and we swoon with spiritual delight.

    No here and now 2000 years into god's complete silent phase, all we need is someone to sound godly, promise that god will take care of things, and we get all weak kneed and teary eye'd.

    Well for me I think Iam done waiting for the god man has tried to invent. Iam done with trying to explain or be explained to, about HIS will. Iam no longer interested. Thank you.

    Danny

  • ashitaka
    ashitaka

    Damnation Danny, great post.

    ash

  • gumby
    gumby

    AAAAAAh come on now Dannybear!

    You know all you simply need a strong cup of coffee this morning and all these things will look different to you

    You have hit on a point I have ALWAYS wondered. Why .....did God stop doing all his miraculous acts? Why all these stories and then these stories come to a halt. The answer from a christian would be because God fullfilled everything in Jesus. He was the end of Gods communication and then he would send the holy spirit as a helper. However.......your question can also be asked of the Holy Spirit...........where is he? Nothing has changed since Christ(supposedly ) ...left the earth.

    Now drink that damn coffee and see the light dude!

    Take care bud,

    Gumby

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Ash and Gumby,

    How did you know I had not had my second cup of coffee before writing the above diatribe?

    I forgot about the Hoooollllyyyyy Spiiiiririittie. Ah yes the 'force' behind the amazing and wonderous works of Christianity.

    Well let me ponder a bit. The spirit motivates a few hooded/robed white bearded men to decide what writings qualify as being inspired of God. Then these same dingbats use the selected works to justify burning at the stake, anyone young or old who does not seem to understand, or comply, with what they chose to be 'truth'. Funny thing most of those they burned or tortured to death, never even layed eye's on or could get a copy of the book of laws they had supposedly violated. Make sense to me.

    Then the Holy Spirit motivates entire armies to go forth and randomly kill and pilage village after village of 'heretic's', heretic's who had no idea they were apostates. The holy spirit knew though.

    Then the Holy Spirit caused millions to leave thier original belief's behind, because some English king wanted to get a divorce.

    Then because about a zillion people who did not know anything about what the Holy Spirit was up to, decided to assign Muhamad a hilltop, so that he could get some of his own Holy Spirit. His Holy Spirit said that the other Holy Spirit was ok, but his was better. Then both Holy Spirits duked it out for the next 1800 years.

    The the USA Holy spirit decided to choose 144,000 'earthling men/women' to carry out it's will for the next 120 yrs, until the Holy Spirit could decide what God wants to do. Meanwhile the Holy Spirit of Muhamad is telling his chosen ones to 'beat the shit out of Jesus chosen ones, so that they can be assured of having 70 extra fine virgins awaiting them after killing themselves driving airplanes into two very tall building's that represent the success and financial well being of the other Holy Spirit's adherents.

    All just comes together doesn't it?

    Danny

    edited to correct tow to two

    Edited by - DannyBear on 13 January 2003 11:9:5

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you all have peace and may you all know a little something: I am not here to convince you of anything. You can believe as you wish you are a free moral agent. And you can be angry at whomever you wish, for whatever reason for however long. That is your perogative. MY business is only this: you have wrongly accused someone, someone that I know and is dear to me and I know to be innocent and if no one else will stand as a witness against the false accusation I will. Just as I would for any one of you, were you wrongly accused even if the circumstances APPEARED otherwise. Why? I dunno thats just the type of person I am. And even if everyone else thought me mad YOU would be grateful that at least ONE person deigned to stand up and say they knew you and that you could not be guilty of whatever crime youve been falsely accused of. I mean, if one person had stood up for my Lord ONE but, ah well, such is earthling man.

    Danny, dear one, peace to you and please know that JAH is a man, too, as well as Christ, Michael, Gabriel, Satan, etc. They are all men. They are, however, not EARTHLING men, as they hail from a different realm. And please know that if youve grown tired of waiting for something to happen, that is quite understandable. Since our days are limited, it is actually to be expected. It doesnt HAVE to occur, but it is quite normal when it does. I have not yet grown tired only because I know the person of whom we are speaking. Were it my fleshly father, and I knew him to be innocent no matter what anyone else believed I would not grow tired then, either.

    Saint if you will condescend to reread what I have been writing here Death did not kill Adam nor Eve. Both died as a result of their actions, which actions let Death IN to take all others. Death is indeed a person the Destroyer and yes, JAH commands him as well (Death, where is your sting? And Death and Hades were hurled into the Lake of Fire.) Death is the King of the Abyss, Abaddon. Since JAH is the Most High, even Death is subject to Him, so that Deaths High Priest, Satan, must still subject himself to the Holy One of Israel. And yes, Death IS used by JAH (think Egypt; think Assyria). But it is at JAHs will, for HIS purpose. Death, however, will also be done away with and be no more so that his appetite will no longer plague creation. Since you wish to quote the Bible, I exhort you to READ it before you dispute that which you do not know or understand.

    Regarding your quotes about JAH causing evil I would ask you to check the original language, for the word YOU state as evil is mistranslated. The accurate word is calamity, meaning that He can bring about a blessing (peace), as well as a malediction (calamity). And why would He not have this power? What Sovereign wouldnt? Certainly, if wicked spirits can bring about suffering (think Job), the Holy One of Israel can, too! Otherwise, how can He be called the MOST High? And if a parent has no right and no power to punish an unruly child WHEN WARNINGS AND DISCIPLINE ARE IGNORED then folks really ought to stop having children. Because we already see the results, dont we? My Fathers covenant with Israel was for PEACE and since they couldnt figure out to walk in peace with Him on their OWN He gave them laws to SHOW them how. Which laws they accepted and rejected but not without FULL disclosure of what would occur if they did.

    But heres the thing that puzzles me most, I guess, the thing I find most illogical: One argument is that God does not exist yet, He is blamed. Can you blame something/someone that does not exist? Another argument is that God does exist, but deserves to be tried for what He does and/or allows. Ignoring that fact that it is with Israel that JAH has a legal case (because, after all, a CONTRACT was made and broken!), versus earthling man having one with HIM, my question would be two part: IF He is the Most High Sovereign, can He not do/allow whatever He wishes and if He possesses such power and such a hard heart so as to use it willy-nilly is accusing Him rightly OR wrongly prudent? Personally, neither makes much sense to me; thankfully, however, although it is what many of you assert, none of it is true.

    When I read His actions upon Israel and others, I also read WHAT LED UP TO SUCH ACTIONS so as to at least have a correct foundation for formulating my argument. Otherwise, it is no different than saying Bush is looking to have Bin Ladens head for no reason and the WTC was bombed for no reason. I marvel that even some minds here that claim to think scientifically have completely surpassed the event of cause and effect.

    Yes, God and Christ knew good and bad. Life and Death. God is Life, so that He knows Himself, and Death is an individual that is greatly known by God. And the latter, Death, is what God did NOT want Adam and Eve or their progeny to know. But they chose differently and so, as a result we ALL now know Death, dont we, in some form or another? But we could have been spared that. It was NOT your Father, JAH, whose chose Death for you it was your father Adam.

    As for the perceived cessation of miraculous acts it has absolutely nothing to do with my Lord fulfilling them. It was the Law he fulfilled not miracles (and it is only we, flesh with its blood, who perceive such things AS miracles to spirits they are common, everyday. It is we who are enslaved by our flesh and not they and things like walking on water has no limitation on them and since spirit beings dont have flesh with its blood, they dont experience sickness, aging, pain or death). And that which is known to us as miracles have not ceased at all, at least not completely. They have ceased PARTIALLY because those of us who possess gifts can only USE them partially. They will again be COMPLETE when that which is COMPLETE the one grants US such gifts my Lord arrives.

    The reason that my Father has left off serving earthling man, in general (though not completely, I promise you!) is quite simple: He attempted to come Himself; He was rejected and the people sent Moses instead. So, He used Moses, but the people rebelled, against the very one they themselves appointed to speak for them. So, He sent others but they beat and imprisoned those. So He sent His Son who came voluntarily, saying that we were WORTH it and he was killed. Methinks that if my own Household treated ME that way I would wash my hands of them, too. However, the Holy One of Israel has NOT washed His hands, but just the opposite. By means of His Son, He has opened the Door to ALL who wish to come in, and not just Abrahams seed. There is only one catch: this time, He wont come to US; we must go to Him! And there is only ONE WAY to do so.

    Again, I bid all of you peace. I do not condemn you for your lack of faith; indeed, I quite understand it. Being human and suffering the plagues of the physical world, as well as seeing others suffer them, including my parents and at one time my son, I can understand where one can lose hope. I have not lost hope, however, nor have I been deceived into believing that God IS, in fact, a liar, as well as a murderer, as Satan has accused and as many here believe.

    I have lived here on this earth 43 years, and EVERY bad thing that has occurred has been a result of decisions made by earthling man, including my parents and myself as well as religious leaders who told me to follow them, for they had the way, government officials who decided that skin color was a basis for running things, men who needed to believe they were superior to a so-called inferior gender because otherwise they had nothing else to believe in, and on many occasions just mean, spiteful people. And please dont think my life rosy by no stretch of the imagination. But, it would be MUCH easier for me to blame God than to blame those who put their own desires above the benefit of others, or who were short-sighted in their decisions. I have chosen not to do that, blames others as well, at least for MY life. I have accepted my life (and no, not such as it is), for in comparison to some, to many, MY life is rich and full even with the detriments it has experienced. But thats LIFE.

    I must also confess, however, that EVERYTHING I have asked God for good or (ultimately) bad (for me) I have received. Not one thing Ive asked for has not been given me. I can look back and say, Well, why did this happen or that happen? and in TRUTH, I know I asked for it. And no, I am not saying that everything good or bad that has happened to me has been from God. But I am saying that everything I have asked for I have received. And the GREATEST of these was the gift of knowing my Lord and knowing God and being able to see and hear that which, obviously, many cannot. It has opened my eyes to what is REALLY going on, what is REALLY occurring, who is REALLY in existence and what is not etc., etc.

    If you are angry at God because you have not received such a gift, I would say to you, then, put your anger aside, give Him the benefit of the doubt and ASK. Problem is and Ive learned this quite well most of you wont. You wont put aside your anger. Why? Because it is your anger that feeds you it is what sustains you. You are not mad at God, but at being DECEIVED by those you now know dont even have half the intelligence you have. How could that have HAPPENED? No, you are a fairly intelligent creature and those who deceived you obviously are not (look at what they believe), so it COULDNT have been you or them. Youre too intelligent and theyre too stupid. So it must have been God.

    Seeing our own selves, though, dear ones, and not even with our worse flaws is THE hardest thing in this world to do. Truly. You cannot admit to yourselves that you were deceived, that someone COULD deceive you or that you would allow it. You MUST, then, blame God and find fault with Him. But dont worry Adam and Eve did it, too! And because of them, it is now our nature to blame everyone but ourselves, including God. But if we can rise ABOVE that nature step OUT of it we will see what we did not before.

    And I have also learned that you wont ask. Why? Because you fear you might be deceived AGAIN? Partly. But mainly because to receive anything you would have to get rid of your ANGER, and it is your anger that is serving you right now. Your woobie, your protection NO ONE will EVER do that to me again! You wont ask because you are AFRAID that its true, that God DOES exist that you WILL hear and see things and that you will have to TELL and speak about what you see and hear and people will think you mad all over again (just as they thought you crazy for being a JW) and you aint going THERE again! No, its safer just as you are now for you cant be misled, nor will you be thought unstable. Nor will you run the risk to arguing with others for things you believe are true because some men TOLD you they were only to find out that you were misled.

    How do I know this? Because I went through all of that, too! The ONLY difference between me and you is that I put God to the test. I tested Him out as He invites ALL of us to do!

    I do not seek the glory of men, dear ones, for mans glory has no place for one such as me. Surely, youy can see that. As it didnt for my Lord. So, again, it is not my business to convince you or my concern as to what you believe. My business is that you like Satan have falsely accused my Father. And I cannot remain silent in light of that. I cannot. I will not. And since that is the case, I know what I am subject to and welcome it. I did, in fact, count the cost before I took my gift on. My eyes are wide open.

    Again, I bid you all peace.

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

    P.S. If you TRULY want understanding... then you can TRY to get it by reading the Bible, perhaps entirely. OR... you could just do what it says at Revelation 3:17, 18; John 5:39, 40; and James 1:5-8. But you MUST truly hear and understand what it is saying to do there... and not just lean upon your OWN understanding. Just those few verses/scriptures... can show you how... IF you are truly 'thirsting'. Peace to you!

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Shell my dear,

    It's not all about you. Sorry my ruminations ignited your fire. It was not directed to you or particularly about you. In fact I have considerable affection for you.

    As to your assertions that Iam angry at God. Simply not true. I still believe in a creator, a God so much more than what has been painted by religion. So all of your posturing on turning away from him is a mute point for me.

    All of my above comments simply reflect my opinion about the entire religious community throughout history. Sometimes we all get so mired in the details, interpretations, chronology, phrasology, prayer, and sanctimonious drivel, that we don't look at the WHOLE picture. That is all my words above tried to do.......get people to see the whole sorry affair, in light of reality think, not some delusional spiritual fog, created by the desire for answers.

    Did not intend or even try to destroy your concept of God. Just to present the events and time line the god of the bible presents.

    Danny

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